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Thread: Shooting in a Detroit Police precinct

  1. #1
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    Shooting in a Detroit Police precinct

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/24/us...html?src=twrhp

    Is this the same one that has the illegal "No Firearms" sign on the front door?

  2. #2
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Great, this should make them feel even better about OC...

    In light of Sunday’s events and the Jan. 8 shooting in Tucson, Ariz., that killed six people and wounded Representative Gabrielle Giffords and others, Chief Godbee said, “We have to take a step back and reassess security procedures at each one of our facilities. Incidents like this are very sobering and remind us how vulnerable we all are.”
    In other words, expect them to try to ban firearm possession in the precinct. I see another MOC Education opportunity in the near future.
    Last edited by TheQ; 01-23-2011 at 10:31 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  3. #3
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Well it disgusts me that I am the first one (hours after the incident mind you) to come on this site to say my Condolences for this incident. Two people have already come on to poke at the DPD in this time of need, and shame on you both!

    Let me say I personally know several officers from this precinct and I find it down right disgusting that I come on here thinking I am going to click on a thread, to ADD my condolences to these officers; their co-workers; and their families, only to see this crap!

    What is wrong with you people?

    COPS WERE SHOT!!!


    I have never been so disappointed with this bored, I have been a member longer than most on here, and always have stuck it out when bad apples come and go. We police our own around here. But wow. I know we will come over this, but I need to cool down. I am very upset. I was watching TV when they came across with breaking news a few hours ago, I immediately picked up my phone and posted onto social media asking for prayers. And prayed myself.


    Well God Bless these officers, and their families. THANK GOD that they were not killed.

    Oh and BTW if you would have listened to everything the Chief said, he didn't imply ANYTHING about a firearms ban, he said they would look at "screening" the public before entering the building, implying having a buzz-in button. Or installing BP glass, which amazing DPD does not have, but most surrounding departments DO, even MANY "safe" suburb PD have BP glass.
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 01-23-2011 at 11:23 PM.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
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    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    SNIP What is wrong with you people?
    No offense, Eastmeyers, but I think you're over-reacting a little bit.

    If some focus on other aspects of the incident without getting all choked up, I cannot fault them. Its not my place to demand others grieve for the loss of strangers.

    Also, it is not my place to demand others grieve for the loss of cops. If I did, I would be demanding compliance with some sort of political correctness (hero-ness of cops).

    Police have had a direct hand in reducing rights in this country. And, lots of rights violations. And, too many cover it up with the Blue Wall of Silence. I cannot fault people if they don't get too choked up about deceased police. Its not like they're celebrating.

    Besides, real men, like you would want police to be, are not interested in condolences. They don't need it. They're tougher than that. Think about it. If some goblin shot Cato or Palerider, I wouldn't be looking for condolences. I'd be supremely pissed. Not all broken up and needing condolences.

  5. #5
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    No offense, Eastmeyers, but I think you're over-reacting a little bit.

    If some focus on other aspects of the incident without getting all choked up, I cannot fault them. Its not my place to demand others grieve for the loss of strangers.

    Also, it is not my place to demand others grieve for the loss of cops. If I did, I would be demanding compliance with some sort of political correctness (hero-ness of cops).

    Police have had a direct hand in reducing rights in this country. And, lots of rights violations. And, too many cover it up with the Blue Wall of Silence. I cannot fault people if they don't get too choked up about deceased police. Its not like they're celebrating.

    Besides, real men, like you would want police to be, are not interested in condolences. They don't need it. They're tougher than that. Think about it. If some goblin shot Cato or Palerider, I wouldn't be looking for condolences. I'd be supremely pissed. Not all broken up and needing condolences.
    Okay lets change the situation, lets say this... A idiot, walked into a CVS (where he knows all the employees are armed) with a shotgun, and starts shooting every employee he can (knowing he is going to die). You wouldn't want people to give condolences to the employees of CVS? You would defend people for being rude about it? DOUBT IT!!! For some reason its "okay" for some people to be rude when it comes to cops being shot. Well guess what, they are people too, they have families too, they have wifes, children, parents and friends too. They are human. Just like you. And WE as OC'ers (even if we don't get along with all departments or officers) are somewhat alike to officers, we show a perseverance to protect ourselves and others, that should create a minor bond for those whom are slightly less heart full.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    SNIP You wouldn't want people to give condolences to the employees of CVS?
    I did not say that I would be opposed to people giving condolences.

    I said I think you are over-reacting. Strongly criticizing others for not offering condolences is my objection. A fair reading of my post makes that clear.

    There is a difference between advocating expressing condolences, and demanding it or criticizing others for omitting it. You did not ask, "Gee fellas, we ought to express our condolences. What do you think?" You harshly critized, even going so far as to ask, "What is wrong with you people?" Big difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    Well it disgusts me that I am the first one (hours after the incident mind you) to come on this site to say my Condolences for this incident. Two people have already come on to poke at the DPD in this time of need, and shame on you both!

    Let me say I personally know several officers from this precinct and I find it down right disgusting that I come on here thinking I am going to click on a thread, to ADD my condolences to these officers; their co-workers; and their families, only to see this crap!

    What is wrong with you people?

    COPS WERE SHOT!!!


    I have never been so disappointed with this bored, I have been a member longer than most on here, and always have stuck it out when bad apples come and go. We police our own around here. But wow. I know we will come over this, but I need to cool down. I am very upset. I was watching TV when they came across with breaking news a few hours ago, I immediately picked up my phone and posted onto social media asking for prayers. And prayed myself.


    Well God Bless these officers, and their families. THANK GOD that they were not killed.

    Oh and BTW if you would have listened to everything the Chief said, he didn't imply ANYTHING about a firearms ban, he said they would look at "screening" the public before entering the building, implying having a buzz-in button. Or installing BP glass, which amazing DPD does not have, but most surrounding departments DO, even MANY "safe" suburb PD have BP glass.
    It's a crappy situation.

    However, I'm just furthering the idea that no matter how many "gun free zone" signs you put up, you only will disarm those of us that might have been able to help.

  8. #8
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I did not say that I would be opposed to people giving condolences.

    I said I think you are over-reacting. Strongly criticizing others for not offering condolences is my objection. A fair reading of my post makes that clear.

    There is a difference between advocating expressing condolences, and demanding it or criticizing others for omitting it. You did not ask, "Gee fellas, we ought to express our condolences. What do you think?" You harshly critized, even going so far as to ask, "What is wrong with you people?" Big difference.
    Your right, and it was because I was disgusted. And I will explain.

    WE (the OC community) have had many issues with DPD. (Fact 1)

    Normally when their is a tragedy in this area it is posted ASAP with respected condolences (Fact 2)

    In this case their was a HORRIBLE tragedy that happen in a place (the actually police department, eg. their front door kind of a thing) where OC'ers have been known not to be welcomed by most LEOs. (Fact 3)

    Their WAS a thread created about the incident but instead of it being the normal thread it was about how this could be bad or worse for us as OC'ers or firearm owners in general. (Fact 4)

    My best guess maybe (I hope I am wrong) some people let their personal feelings get in the way of feeling bad for others.

    So these are the facts. I saw the thread, when clicking on it I expected to see the normal, heart felt condolences, and prayers. But instead it was just disturbing selfish posts about how this MAY effect us, instead of HOW it IS effecting them. So yeah I was disgusted.

    I honestly have no problem with the posts about what the aftermath will bring for us as firearm owners and OC'ers, but it shouldn't have been brought up yet, their should be SOME CLASS! These are my feelings. I honestly was not looking for an argument here, I was just hot headed, when I clicked on the thread and read what I read. It upset me, as I assume it did many, but no one else flew off the handle like I did. But I stick by my statements.


    I also still pray for those officers, and their families. God Bless

    (also I am sorry I am not writing as well or coherently as I normally do, this is just close to my heart, and am having a hard time putting together words like they should be)
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 01-24-2011 at 01:02 AM.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  9. #9
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by office888 View Post
    It's a crappy situation.

    However, I'm just furthering the idea that no matter how many "gun free zone" signs you put up, you only will disarm those of us that might have been able to help.
    True. Although, most of us here understand that any GFZ sign at a police department holds no weight. per MCL 123.1102. And as to your original question. I have OC'ed in this precinct and have never noticed a GFZ sign. I also had no issue when carrying in this precinct. Sorry I didn't answer it before. And I am slightly more cool headed now.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    SNIP ...should be SOME CLASS!
    You just did. Very classy. There are plenty here who could never write a post like that.

  11. #11
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Keep in mind this was posted late on a Sunday night when many people are in bed for work today and didn't see the post. You can't expect a 1000 posts in such a short time. You are close to the situation so I understand, but step back a sec and look at it.

    I think all shootings are sad, even ones that are justified. I'm very sorry this happened and hope the officers recover quickly.
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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    I did not see this until now. What a shame It is unfortunate that some people feel that this is a good way to vent their anger.

    I am glad to see that the officers are doing ok and will be keeping them in my prayers.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Eastmeyers,

    Looking at the time lapse between the posting of the original post on this thread and your first post on this thread is less than 45 min! I am terribly sorry that LEO's were shot by some twit out to commit suicide by cop. I am sorry that the 1 person who posted before you did not express their condolences. My read of the 1 comment is that they expect the ANTI-GUN folks to use this situation to further THEIR ends---- I don't disagree with the poster.

    May be one should step back just a bit and review at a time when one is not so emotionally involved--- just a suggestion.

    Peace
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 01-24-2011 at 09:22 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    despite this being a terrible tragedy, some of us are here to discuss issues related open carry and not express thoughts and prayers for injured people. the sentiment is nice, but it can certainly be expressed more meaningfully on ones' private facebook or twitter account. i find it difficult for me to chide posters for sticking to the topic of open carry.
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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers
    Two people have already come on to poke at the DPD in this time of need
    Disagree. Nothing posted before you posted was inappropriate to the subject matter of this website or forum nor inappropriately expressed generally. It is legitimate to ask if they had a "no weapons" sign on the door. It is also legitimate to express a speculation for discussion on this incident's potential impact with regard to DPD's future behavior toward those lawfully armed, particularly given DPD's past behavior patterns toward those lawfully armed.

    Check your browser's address bar. You are at opencarry.org.
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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    despite this being a terrible tragedy, some of us are here to discuss issues related open carry and not express thoughts and prayers for injured people. the sentiment is nice, but it can certainly be expressed more meaningfully on ones' private facebook or twitter account. i find it difficult for me to chide posters for sticking to the topic of open carry.

    I have to agree. And while I posted what I am comfortable posting on here some may not be in fact some may not espouse praying at all. That is their business IMOP and it is not mine to chide them and tell them what to say or how to react to this type of tragedy.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member Ruger95's Avatar
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    Its sad but its much more of a personal tragedy for the DPD personel than it is for outsiders. We can sympathize with all those affected directly but it doesn't hit us as hard. Look at the turnout for the officer killed last week. Cops showed up from all across the USA and Canada for his funeral. This kind of event brings them together in a bond that not only shows their respect but reenforces their dedication to their duty. Its about being a part of something so much bigger than the individual officer.

    So for us it finally comes down to how this will effect our rights. As the shooting in Arizona shows the flack from anti-gunners is immediate with new laws being proposed. New laws to abrogate our rights as law abiding citizens and make it easier for those who ignore the laws to do their nasty deeds with relative impunity.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    It is also legitimate to express a speculation for discussion on this incident's potential impact with regard to DPD's future behavior toward those lawfully armed, particularly given DPD's past behavior patterns toward those lawfully armed.
    And already I'm hearing reports that DPD is considering installing metal detectors at the doors to their precincts. To the extent they disarm law-abiding folks in public areas of public buildings, not associated with courts, that is illegal. I guess the speculation that they would take a knee-jerk reaction which harms lawfully armed citizens didn't turn out to be too far-fetched.
    Last edited by DanM; 01-24-2011 at 03:02 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    And already I'm hearing reports that DPD is considering installing metal detectors at the doors to their precincts. To the extent they disarm law-abiding folks in public areas of public buildings, not associated with courts, that is illegal. I guess the speculation that they would take a knee-jerk reaction which harms lawfully armed citizens didn't turn out to be too far-fetched.
    I am already drafting an email to the Mayor's office about these rumors. I want to take a gentle shot across the bow before this gets too far. Venator is currently reviewing my draft.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  20. #20
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Email below:

    ATTN: Mayor Bing, Mayor of Detroit
    Mayor Bing,

    My name is [TheQ], I am a resident of the City of Lansing and a Member of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. What I say today is not on behalf of the organization, but I am inclined to believe Michigan Open Carry, Inc., would agree with most of the message.

    First, please, let me express my regrets about what has happened recently in your precinct. I wish the man would have found a more peaceful way to end his own life than involve several of your officers, wounding many of them in the process. What a tragedy.

    http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...olice_pre.html

    I was a bit concerned when I read you being quoted in a recent article about the possibility of installing metal detectors in precincts. I am wondering what the purpose for this is. As you may know you can not ban firearms from city police precincts. As I am sure you are aware, such attempts would be in direct violation of MCL 123.1102, which reads:

    "A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state."

    Furthermore, the State Court of Appeals weighed in on this law in MCRGO V. City of Ferndale:


    THE MICHIGAN COURT OF APPEALS CONCLUDED:
    April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237

    "In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

    Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse."

    If the City of Detroit attempted to ban firearms in government building, it would be contrary to State law. The firearm community of Michigan would stand against any violation of 123.1102. So I suggest you analyze your reasons for the installation of expensive metal detectors in precinct buildings. I do support the installation of bullet resistant glass and a policy on being more observant when dealing with the public.


    I do hope your city will work through this tragedy in a constructive and quick manner.

    Most sincerely,

    [TheQ]
    Last edited by TheQ; 01-24-2011 at 03:20 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  21. #21
    Regular Member MarineSgt's Avatar
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    Phillip,

    The last section of your email that is not a quote is italicized.
    Someone who can't be trusted to walk free in public with a firearm shouldn't be walking around free.

  22. #22
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by office888 View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/24/us...html?src=twrhp

    Is this the same one that has the illegal "No Firearms" sign on the front door?
    Quote Originally Posted by office888 View Post
    It's a crappy situation.

    However, I'm just furthering the idea that no matter how many "gun free zone" signs you put up, you only will disarm those of us that might have been able to help.
    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    True. Although, most of us here understand that any GFZ sign at a police department holds no weight. per MCL 123.1102. And as to your original question. I have OC'ed in this precinct and have never noticed a GFZ sign. I also had no issue when carrying in this precinct. Sorry I didn't answer it before. And I am slightly more cool headed now.
    I meant to apologize to officer888 in my last post but, I didn't. I was hot headed when opening the thread and lumped him in with the other poster, when I "flew off the handle". Maybe I shouldn't have flown off the handle, but I feel I still made valid points, and again I apologize to officer888. And again, God bless these officers and their families!

    officer888 I should not have just lumped you in generally in the thread, when you said nothing wrong, and that was wrong of me, I am sorry for that. I would have sent this via PM, but I thought that making it public is fair, since my condemnation was public.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  23. #23
    Regular Member Bearhawk's Avatar
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    I too am very thankful that none of the officers sustained life threatening injuries due to this evil madman. I do wish those injured a speedy recovery. Nobody, police or innocent bystanders, deserve to be shot by a madman. Thankfully none were killed other than the madman himself.

    I wouldn't offer condolences as those are typically reserved for when someone dies. In this case the only one that died was a criminal and I doubt many here would offer condolences to someone who died when they were criminally attacking anybody, not just police. Had an officer or an innocent bystander been killed, I would offer condolences as that would truly be sad.
    "Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured...
    but no one must prove they are a citizen!” Ben Stein

  24. #24
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    I feel I still made valid points
    What is an example of a valid point you have made?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I'm glad no one besides the shooter was killed. I have nothing against the DPD and can only begin to imagine the stress that comes with serving in a police department that has certainly seen its share problems, all of which are no fault of the patrol officers themselves. Events like this further my belief that, in any situation, the more guns possessed by those who are trained to eliminate possible threats, the better.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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