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Thread: Garden Grove/Fountain Valley, CA detainment

  1. #1
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    Garden Grove/Fountain Valley, CA detainment

    Orange County is such a gun-free zone, it is quite amazing!

    well, i'm going to have to rewrite the situation again.

    my unarmed brother, UOC girlfriend, and UOC me went to the supermarket on beach/edinger (lat 33.738421° lon -117.988376° exactly) to buy some groceries. just as we walked 100 fet into the store, an unarmed security guard (this guy had nothing on him except a shiny star badge and a walkie talkie. not even a tazer, stun gun, baton, anything, no gun) came up from behind and the dialog went:

    sec: hey, are those real guns? (again, with these rhetorical questions)
    me: yes
    sec: why do you have guns in the store?
    me: we're allowed to have guns, it's the law (ok, what i mean was citizens have the right to carry guns)
    sec: oh, okay. (then he walked away from us).

    we got our stuff and paid for it. we spotted the security guard on the phone and we knew he was calling the police. nothing we could do about that... as we head for the door, he came up to us and told us 3 to wait at the lobby but didn't mention for what. since we didn't want to look like criminals or anything, we complied. he was on the phone describing what we wore and what we look like to the police. when we was done, he walked outside and left us in side the store.

    about 3-5 minutes later, my brother saw the swat outside getting ready behind cover. my brother got his camera out and ready to record. when we were both ready, the swat signal us to come out. we walked up to the automatic door and as it opened, the swat yelled "hands up" "hands way up!" so we did. several scared customers were walking by without knowing right in the middle of m4 gunlines.

    first, the swat told my brother to stop recording and put the phone down, which he complied. they told him to walk backwards, cuffed him, and took him 100 feet away.
    next, my gf was called to move sideways and backwards. they cuffed her and took her gun. they took her 100 feet the other way.
    lastly, they told me to walk backwards and then the cop took my hand and held my index fingers tightly. immediately i let the officer know "i do not consent to illegal search/seizures". the cop complied and asked if i had anything illegal. i said no. he said he will pat down for weapons, i complied. after that was done, he had me sit on the curb. at this point, i saw at least 5 cops with m4 machine guns, an additional 5 cops blocking entrances to the supermarket and a few others all around blocking streets. it was pretty heavy.

    police tried to make small talk like "what do you carry?" "why do you carry?" so on so on... they asked for id, and i said no unless i am arrested.
    they question my brother, but he refused to give id. i told them i do not consent to having my gun serial ID checked. the police said "i don't care, we do it anyway" and so he took it to the police car and ran a check.
    my gf didn't have any id. while all this happened, the cops talk amongst eachother trying to find reasons for charging us such as: "cannot have empty mag in the gun" "cannot open carry within 1000 feet of a school zone". turns out, there was a school right behind the store. but as long as we are on private property, school zones dont apply. only if we step into the public streets, oh boy... that's different. well, seems like they didn't charge us for school zone.
    fast foward 30-40 minutes later. they couldn't find anything to charge us with and let us go with out our weapons. YES without our weapons! we asked for our weapons, and they took it out of their trunk and gave it back to us. before we left, the police told us that the security guard wanted a word with us.

    it went something like this:
    super security guard with no weapons said: "i do not want any of you to ever come back to this super market with or without guns. you should know that this store do not allow guns"
    me: "i didn't see any signs on the door that says no weapons." ( i saw a no pets sign, and some other business type stuff)
    sec: "there's a no gun sign inside the store"
    me: "well i didn't see it."
    sec: "i am here to make sure our customers are safe and we do not want guns here" (how is he keeping people safe when he has no weapon himself? how would he deal with armed robbers?)
    sec: "don't ever come back. this is a verbal tresspass notice. if you come here again, i will call the police and have you arrested." (while he said this. he stood quite tall among the 5 police behind him. he really felt like a cop this moment in time despite his failure to make it in police academy. infact, this is the only time in his life that he felt like he did something.)
    with that, we all stood up with our guns (except my unarmed brother) in our holster and walked right past him and left him to talk to the police. went to our car and drove off towards walmart to buy some 9mm. right after that, we went to lowes without incident.


    according to the police that held us, he mentioned that the ********* security guard made a phone call and described to them that 3 armed men came in with guns drawn and were going to rob the store. i told them that we never had our weapons out. the whole time we had our weapons in the holster. the cops asked "Are you sure?!" we said yes, we never touched our weapons even once.

    with this, i contacted davis so we can get OCP to acknowledge our UOC rights and not treat us like criminals.
    Last edited by xnetc9; 01-27-2011 at 12:24 AM.

  2. #2
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnetc9 View Post
    removed after xnetc removed his post...
    Never consent! You told them you did not consent to illegal searches and then shortly thereafter you allowed them to pat you down. If you would have said you did not consent to being patted down and they did it anyway you'd have a much better case against these fourth amendment violations.

    I'd call/email/PM calguns if I were you. Either the security guy falsely reported a crime which was not happening or the police officers overreacted or both. Either way somebody should be getting punished for their actions.
    Last edited by bigtoe416; 01-24-2011 at 02:33 AM.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    please post video and audio
    Please allow counsel to review the audio and video recordings before you release them for public consumption.

    I wont belabor the point, but I am also in agreement with BigToe416. Be polite and decline consent and stop answering questions. This will take practice.

    It is irrelvant that this is their first UOC encounter as this activity is pretty well known statewide and has been covered in numerous departmental memos and there is no longer any excuse for any department not to know how to handle open carriers.

    Before making any complaint, you should probably PRA the 911 call and find out exactly what the security guard reported. If he did report three gunmen with their arms unholstered, he has filed a false police report and should be prosecuted for this action. With a SWAT team responding and reacting like they did, the potential for someone being hauled away in a body bag was significantly increased.

    Quote Originally Posted by xnetc9 View Post
    Deleted.
    Did you get your firearms back?
    Last edited by ConditionThree; 01-24-2011 at 02:41 AM.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    Before you do anything, check out this link.

    http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=245866
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    Lawyer up immediately, subpoena the markets security tapes, file a complaint. Contact Elsensei on this forum Jason Davis has already won this case in SD.
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    Never consent! You told them you did not consent to illegal searches and then shortly thereafter you allowed them to pat you down. If you would have said you did not consent to being patted down and they did it anyway you'd have a much better case against these fourth amendment violations.

    I'd call/email/PM calguns if I were you. Either the security guy falsely reported a crime which was not happening or the police officers overreacted or both. Either way somebody should be getting punished for their actions.
    either allow pat down or sit there for 20+ minutes with cuffs. what would you pick?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    Please allow counsel to review the audio and video recordings before you release them for public consumption.

    I wont belabor the point, but I am also in agreement with BigToe416. Be polite and decline consent and stop answering questions. This will take practice.

    It is irrelvant that this is their first UOC encounter as this activity is pretty well known statewide and has been covered in numerous departmental memos and there is no longer any excuse for any department not to know how to handle open carriers.

    Before making any complaint, you should probably PRA the 911 call and find out exactly what the security guard reported. If he did report three gunmen with their arms unholstered, he has filed a false police report and should be prosecuted for this action. With a SWAT team responding and reacting like they did, the potential for someone being hauled away in a body bag was significantly increased.



    Did you get your firearms back?
    the police did say that the security claim there was 3 armed people in the store with unholstered weapons. i'll talk to the same gun lawyer previously to see what to be done.

    we got our firearms back after reminding the police to return it to us.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnetc9 View Post
    either allow pat down or sit there for 20+ minutes with cuffs. what would you pick?
    The cuffs. Then you have grounds for a lawsuit.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Window_Seat View Post
    I will be checking back to see if:

    A: OP deletes the post, and replaces it with "consulting with Counsel"
    or
    B: Provides video/audio...

    C: I also want to know if the officers checked ID, but that's none of my bee's wax anyway...

    As an IANAL type, I would suggest A above.

    ETA: Did I forget to mention something about "Counsel"? Oh, and one more thing, Yeah, I already said something about deleting and checking with counsel...

    Erik.
    i am cleaning up the audio but won't post it here. will consult with davis first... that is if he still takes UOC cases.

    the officer asked us 3 for ID. my gf had no id on here, but they searched and seized stuff in her pockets anyway because she failed to mention that she didn't consent to searches. my unarmed brother had no weapons and he refused to show ID. i also refused illegal searches. good thing because this time, i didn't have my recorder strapped to my balls.

    my brother initially was recording them but they told him to turn it off while being held at gun point with m4's from swat.

  11. #11
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnetc9 View Post
    either allow pat down or sit there for 20+ minutes with cuffs. what would you pick?
    Cuff me and transport me to jail for doing absolutely nothing wrong. Be sure to make the cuffs too tight and mock my stony silence to your fellow officers over the radio or in an email. While youre at it, seize my property and make sure you do a real good job documenting all the charges you believe you have on me. Take as long as you like, because it will only create standing.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gundude View Post
    The cuffs. Then you have grounds for a lawsuit.
    they cuffed my gf, but didn't cuff me.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    $$$$$$$$
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    gotta run these video and audio recordsing by davis first. ill post them after for your fun.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnetc9 View Post
    gotta run these video and audio recordsing by davis first. ill post them after for your fun.
    Be sure and ask him if you should make further posts here about the incident. He may advise against it.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnetc9 View Post
    the officer asked us 3 for ID. my gf had no id on here, but they searched and seized stuff in her pockets anyway because she failed to mention that she didn't consent to searches.
    If she didn't consent to a search then they couldn't search her. If they had RAS that a crime had been or was about to be committed AND they thought she was armed AND dangerous then they could conduct an open hand pat down of her clothing and could remove any item that felt like a weapon. The fact that they rifled through her pockets and took things out makes this stop even worse for the officers.

    I swear, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who has read Terry.

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    Regular Member Window_Seat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    If she didn't consent to a search then they couldn't search her. If they had RAS that a crime had been or was about to be committed AND they thought she was armed AND dangerous then they could conduct an open hand pat down of her clothing and could remove any item that felt like a weapon. The fact that they rifled through her pockets and took things out makes this stop even worse for the officers.

    I swear, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who has read Terry.
    Who's Terry? Is she good looking?

    Erik.

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    The cops have not read Terry nor St. John!

    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    If she didn't consent to a search then they couldn't search her. If they had RAS that a crime had been or was about to be committed AND they thought she was armed AND dangerous then they could conduct an open hand pat down of her clothing and could remove any item that felt like a weapon. The fact that they rifled through her pockets and took things out makes this stop even worse for the officers.

    I swear, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who has read Terry.
    Hey Bigtone,

    How can we expect pro-gun people to read or care about precedent (the law defined) when our cops won't read case law. Hell, our own lawyers won't read the stuff!

    Were the cops called out for brandishing, really? If so, was the call an anonomys tip (read JL v. Florida; the cops broke the law in that case).

    In Delong, the court ruled that there shall be no embarassment or running of serial numbers during the inspection [12031(e)]. How did the cops perform on this count?

    California does not have a stop-and-ID statute. In Hicks, the court ruled that the police must have RAS to demand ID in a stop-and-ID state (Nevada).

    And, in dozens of cases, the courts have ruled that the mere presence of legally carried gun does not negate 4A rights--how did the cops due on this issue?

    In Terry, the court ruled that a person may be detained if a trained police officer witnesses what he believes to be a crime that is about to occur. Again where was the RAS?

    Qualified immunity may be stripped if a "well established and enumerated right" is blatantly disregarded by the fuzz.

    How many laws and enumerated rights did these so-called Law Enforcement Officials violate?

    The Gustapo lives in the USA! They are wearing uniforms, they have badges, and they have guns. The KGB would be proud.

    Your earlier point abuot not agreeing to an illegal search was right-on. At that point, I would have been so mad (internally upset, not externally upset) I would have enjoyed the ride to a booking room. I would have been thinking to myself, $750 dollars a minute and I am going to ask the judge to have the arresting police officer's wife write the check to me!

    markm

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    an update: had a nice chat with jason davis. i'll try to retain him to handle educating the OCP (Orange County Police) so that echecking UOC at gunpoint will be a thing of the past. any UOCer who gets violated can sue for punitives after the warning letter is issued.

    on another note, jason davis is really nice. calguns foundation no longer supports financially UOC cases. i had to dish out to do the case or else nothing will be done for UOC.

    Last edited by xnetc9; 01-26-2011 at 05:20 PM.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnetc9 View Post
    an update: had a nice chat with jason davis. i'll try to retain him to handle educating the OCP (Orange County Police) so that echecking UOC at gunpoint will be a thing of the past. any UOCer who gets violated can sue for punitives after the warning letter is issued.

    on another note, jason davis is really nice. calguns foundation no longer supports financially UOC cases. i had to dish out to do the case or else nothing will be done for UOC.

    Where might we be able to donate to your legal defense (offense) fund?
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    Where might we be able to donate to your legal defense (offense) fund?
    donate?

    by the way, the sentence "calguns foundation no longer supports financially UOC cases" is suppose to read "calguns foundation no longer financially support UOC cases."

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    Ditto on where we can send $$$ to help you out.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...
    Stolen from ConditionThree because it can't be stressed enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chewy352 View Post
    Ditto on where we can send $$$ to help you out.
    i suppose you can donate via paypal to xnetc9@hotmail.com for the cause. any help would be appreciated.

  24. #24
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnetc9 View Post
    i suppose you can donate via paypal to xnetc9@hotmail.com for the cause. any help would be appreciated.
    It might be more appropriate if there were a fund account set up with Jason Davis rather than a personal pay pal account. This way, those who contribute could be assured that the funds would be used for your attorney fees.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

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    just like to point out: you are allowed to uoc next to a school as long as you are on private property. this includes the supermarket and its parking lot. do not step onto the sidewalk. that is within school zone. hmm yes, you can be standing on the parkinglot with a gun while kids are walking on the sidewalk to/from school.


    California Penal Code Section 626.9

    Legal Research Home > California Lawyer > Penal Code > California Penal Code Section 626.9

    (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
    Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
    (b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
    knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone
    , as defined in
    paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written
    permission of the school district superintendent, his or her
    designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as
    specified in subdivision (f).
    (c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
    under any of the following circumstances:

    (1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
    property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
    property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
    firearm is otherwise lawful.

    (2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
    firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
    container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle
    .
    This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
    transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
    or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
    accordance with state law.
    (3) When the person possessing the firearm reasonably believes
    that he or she is in grave danger
    because of circumstances forming
    the basis of a current restraining order issued by a court against
    another person or persons who has or have been found to pose a threat
    to his or her life or safety
    . This subdivision may not apply when
    the circumstances involve a mutual restraining order issued pursuant
    to Division 10 (commencing with Section 6200) of the Family Code
    absent a factual finding of a specific threat to the person's life or
    safety. Upon a trial for violating subdivision (b), the trier of a
    fact shall determine whether the defendant was acting out of a
    reasonable belief that he or she was in grave danger.
    (4) When the person is exempt from the prohibition against
    carrying a concealed firearm pursuant to Section 25615, 25625, 25630,
    or 25645.
    (d) Except as provided in subdivision (b), it shall be unlawful
    for any person, with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to
    discharge, or attempt to discharge, a firearm in a school zone, as
    defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e).
    The prohibition contained in this subdivision does not apply to
    the discharge of a firearm to the extent that the conditions of
    paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) are satisfied.
    (e) As used in this section, the following definitions shall
    apply:
    (1) "School zone" means an area in, or on the grounds of, a public
    or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1
    to 12, inclusive, or within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds
    of the public or private school.
    Last edited by xnetc9; 01-27-2011 at 12:55 AM.

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