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Thread: Suspiciously "matching the description"

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    Regular Member sigfan's Avatar
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    Deleting account - removing posts.
    Last edited by sigfan; 02-02-2011 at 02:34 AM.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    My guess making it up. It is one thing I feared, now they are getting educated that we are getting educated they need RAS, they are going to start trying to make up RAS as they go along. Supposedly the last time they ran me, I was involved in a hit and run, I checked the records there were no accident hit/run reports that day.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    My guess making it up. It is one thing I feared, now they are getting educated that we are getting educated they need RAS, they are going to start trying to make up RAS as they go along. Supposedly the last time they ran me, I was involved in a hit and run, I checked the records there were no accident hit/run reports that day.
    Arent those call (911) a mattter of public record? If they start making stuff up they could run up against a citizen armed with information and call them out on the carpet. Right?

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post
    Arent those call (911) a mattter of public record? If they start making stuff up they could run up against a citizen armed with information and call them out on the carpet. Right?
    Some of the information is not routed through "911". For example, the description might have been the result of an interview after the officers arrived. THAT would not be on any tape. Some calls are originated by being flagged down where the officer may merely tell dispatch that he/she is out at a location.

    Until officers are "wired for sound" and every word while on duty is recorded there is a lot that isn't part of any public record.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Is Paranoia creeping into every scenario now? It seems so many encounters take this path of suspicion "there out to get me"

    Officers were on a call before you even entered the area but you assume it is all about violating your rights or trying to locate a perpetrator?
    You assume they are looking at your gun instead of your attire and description but took offense to a simple question, what happened to being good stewards in normalizing open carry. All this is doing is making it normal to have attitude thrown at them when they come in contact with someone who openly carries.

    Can we say "copaphobia" see I can make words up too !
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Some of the information is not routed through "911". For example, the description might have been the result of an interview after the officers arrived. THAT would not be on any tape. Some calls are originated by being flagged down where the officer may merely tell dispatch that he/she is out at a location.

    Until officers are "wired for sound" and every word while on duty is recorded there is a lot that isn't part of any public record.

    Good to know. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Is Paranoia creeping into every scenario now? It seems so many encounters take this path of suspicion "there out to get me"

    Officers were on a call before you even entered the area but you assume it is all about violating your rights or trying to locate a perpetrator?
    You assume they are looking at your gun instead of your attire and description but took offense to a simple question, what happened to being good stewards in normalizing open carry. All this is doing is making it normal to have attitude thrown at them when they come in contact with someone who openly carries.

    Can we say "copaphobia" see I can make words up too !

    I know what you are saying, BigD. However, do you honestly believe that all LEOs are: one, educated and properly trained on OC. Two, "comfortable" with citizens OCing. As Goose has stated our members have had "run ins" with LEOs. I dont think one should be paranoid, but being defensive with a benign posture isnt a bad place to station ones self.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    When they stop harassing OC citizens, we'll stop calling them out on it. Why should his attire matter? OC doesn't have a dress code.

    Citing:
    Tom Brester Inceident
    SVG's Incident
    Kurby's Incident (This will be overturned)
    SigFan's Incident *The one at the marina* (I've seen the video)

    I can name a few more, but will digress
    In a case where a crime has been committed and a description is made, attire does matter along with other descriptors, nothing was said about his gun according to his account, just his suspicion.

    Kurby's Incident hopefully it will be over turned, and for the record I am not implying that some incidents officers are out of line, just not the majority or all of them attitudes and have become prevalent by some on the board.

    SigFans Incident from what I have read, this is the normal routine if it was gun related or not. As to the video did you get popcorn with it I have been and will continue to be in the "Show Me" attitude when it comes to making an opinion on something, if he offers to show it great if not oh well.
    Do note that once the video was shown things were straighten out, did the officers get that benefit at the encounter?
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Careful, Redmond PD does play the pay-back game imho.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Goose we are discussing the op post, in this thread, where did the officer/s attempt to violate his rights?
    Officers do have a responsibility to respond to a crime and to gather what information they can and with in their purview as an officer and this may include stopping someone and asking them questions although it may not be clear to you why they are asking.

    Does not one accept some responsibility in assisting Police in their work? Or have some taken the attitude of look the other way when a crime may have been committed and become a large part of the problem.
    Do we not have a sense of community to look after our neighbors in the time of need?
    As of now in this situation we are discussing, no one here knows all the facts available including the OP, what if that assault just occurred to a close neighbor and you had the information to help officers in finding the perp, do we just shun them and look at them in disgust, I do not think so.

    As to Toms incident, Tom did real well and even though they were requiring more then allowed by law, Tom complied and addressed the issue later, which I feel be it publicized or not has and will make a difference, I remember reading on of the threads recently where Federal Way has adjusted their contact procedures.

    Nobody said this Right we exercise was going to be easy but we all can succeed at it.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Sigfan: I'd have done the SAME thing and ignore them with the past history of how "we" are treated. Otherwise, you'd be waiting a year for your gun back, again!
    Last edited by Deleted_User; 01-24-2011 at 03:38 PM.

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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by sigfan View Post
    You could see him look at his other two fellow cops and then look back at my waste.
    They could have nabbed you for littering, or perhaps indecent exposure.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Is Paranoia creeping into every scenario now?
    Just remember Henry Kissinger's words. "Even a paranoid has some real enemies.”
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geojohn View Post
    They could have nabbed you for littering, or perhaps indecent exposure.
    I knew someone was going to say it.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Police lie. That's just a statement of fact, there are no laws nor policies against it and I believe there is case law that the "police must be allowed to retain their arts and methods to do their jobs", or words to that effect.

    If you did not call the police, and they are not there in response to you, then Officer Friendly is looking to arrest someone and there's no reason for him to think that someone isn't you. He's going to ask questions and see if he can get someone to admit guilt or culpability.

    It's not bashing. No more than your Mom saying "I know you ate those cookies," even if she hasn't dusted for prints and was out of the house when those cookies mysteriously disappeared. Get over it and just smile, you know what the game is as well as they do.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-24-2011 at 05:36 PM.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Police lie. That's just a statement of fact,
    As do Contractors, Accountants, Doctors, Lawyers, Politicians, Teachers, Mechanics, Real Estate Agents, News Reporters, and so on.

    The only reason we all survive is that they don't ALL lie. Just those that represent a small portion of every segment of society.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Police lie. That's just a statement of fact, there are no laws nor policies against it and I believe there is case law that the "police must be allowed to retain their arts and methods to do their jobs", or words to that effect.

    If you did not call the police, and they are not there in response to you, then Officer Friendly is looking to arrest someone and there's no reason for him to think that someone isn't you. He's going to ask questions and see if he can get someone to admit guilt or culpability.

    It's not bashing. No more than your Mom saying "I know you ate those cookies," even if she hasn't dusted for prints and was out of the house when those cookies mysteriously disappeared. Get over it and just smile, you know what the game is as well as they do.
    So then you walk into your home and find a family member has been assaulted, does it make a difference then?

    A better word for this is being "shortsighted" and we know even on this board people lie but not all do.
    Last edited by BigDave; 01-24-2011 at 05:43 PM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    So then you walk into your home and find a family member has been assaulted, does it make a difference then?

    A better word for this is being "shortsighted" and we know even on this board people lie but not all do.
    you are an unabashed, full time, unwavering, no matter what, lying COP apologist!

    sigfan goes home to find cops standing around, for no good reason.
    they describe his appearance as the suspect in a crime.
    he continues on his lawful way, they dont investigate the alleged crime.
    they leave!
    seems to prove that they lied, in a fishing attempt, no more, no less!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    As do Contractors, Accountants, Doctors, Lawyers, Politicians, Teachers, Mechanics, Real Estate Agents, News Reporters, and so on.

    The only reason we all survive is that they don't ALL lie. Just those that represent a small portion of every segment of society.
    I believe his point was that Police officers are allowed, and often trained, to lie in the performance of their job.

    Iirc SCOTUS has ruled that deception on the part of police officers is perfectly ok. In the course of an 'investigation,' an officer can be a low down, lying, son of a bitch, right to you face... and it's totally legal. Not moral, not ethical, but legal.

    Teachers: not allowed by policy, trained and encouraged to lie in the performance of their job
    Doctors: not allowed by policy, trained and encouraged to lie in the performance of their job
    Mechanics: not allowed by policy, trained and encouraged to lie in the performance of their job
    Real estate agents: not allowed by policy, trained and encouraged to lie in the performance of their job
    News reporters: not allowed by policy, trained and encouraged to lie in the performance of their job
    Accountants: not allowed by policy, trained and encouraged to lie in the performance of their job

    Politicians: Well, in theory...
    Lawyers: Well, in theory...
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 01-24-2011 at 07:10 PM.

  20. #20
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    you are an unabashed, full time, unwavering, no matter what, lying COP apologist!

    sigfan goes home to find cops standing around, for no good reason.
    they describe his appearance as the suspect in a crime.
    he continues on his lawful way, they dont investigate the alleged crime.
    they leave!
    seems to prove that they lied, in a fishing attempt, no more, no less!
    ROFLOL, am I suppose to say ouch now! There is no doubt there are bad cops as there are bad people in general and those who lie in here as well but to group an entire group with all this cop bashing is BS as it would be if all of it went toward us for carrying firearms, which by the way we still see to often from all walks of life and professions.

    It is not surprising that this thread as gone awry and trying to gather other incidents and issues to support this copaphobic attitudes displayed by some.
    Are there some bad cops, of course as there is in any field, get the idea?
    This incident I do not see it that cops were doing anymore or less then their job, he asked a question, so what, big deal.

    • "Do you live here?"
    • He took another extended look at my Steelers shirt and said "There was an assault on someone by a Steelers fan."
    Does not seem out of line.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    "Do you live here?"
    I asked, "Are you detaining me?" He said no and I had an uneventful night.

    You know, it's not like we haven't discussed this a hundred times.

  22. #22
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    • "Do you live here?"
    • He took another extended look at my Steelers shirt and said "There was an assault on someone by a Steelers fan."

    bigdave wrote:



    Does not seem out of line.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    i do not think it appropriate to accuse a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN of a made up crime of ASSAULT!
    there are lots of things a cop can say, to initiate a consensual encounter.

    i do not expect you to say ouch either, you are much to thick for my minor barbs to stick.
    when i reply to your posts, its not necessarily for your benefit, i dont expect you to change.
    but i hope other readers will take a second look at the way you always stand up for
    the COPs, no matter how egregiously they behave!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  23. #23
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    He took another extended look at my Steelers shirt and said "There was an assault on someone by a Steelers fan."
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Does not seem out of line.
    Totally out of line.

    "Steelers fan" is a lot different than "a man wearing a Steelers shirt."

    "Steelers fan" as a description of a suspected criminal is beyond BS.

    Quote Originally Posted by victim
    Officer, I was just stabbed. A description of the perpetrator? Sure... he was a "STEELERS FAN."
    Effing ridiculous. I'd bet dollar to donuts that cop was lying.

    What's next:

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer investigating crime
    Hello Victim. Was the person who stabbed/robbed/carjacked you a Seahawks fan? Did he like Thelonious Monk? Was he a fan of Sushi? How about the TV show M.A.S.H?" Great, TY very much based on this information we'll surely be able to track him down.
    You say cop bashing, I say cop-apologist.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    Sigfan: I'd have done the SAME thing and ignore them with the past history of how "we" are treated. Otherwise, you'd be waiting a year for your gun back, again!

    Where in his posting of the event did he mention he was threatened with loosing his gun?!? This is pure conjecture on your part, Goose, unless I missed it.
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  25. #25
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    A quick cure for invented RAS is a formal written complaint. In many departments that triggers a process of interviews/questions from their supervisor and/or internal affairs. A few of those and the officers will knock it off, especially if you have your end recorded.

    Also, you can FOIA the field notes, 911 calls, and in-car messaging. Some states exempt information from on-going investigations being released under FOIA, so the cops may refuse to release the info--legitimately or otherwise; you would have to judge by comparing their refusal to the statute.

    They'll get the idea pretty quick that the formal complaint and FOIA requests aren't worth the momentary jollies from harrassing a law-abiding gun owner.

    This is really all just an off-shoot of Citizen's policy about police encounters: if I am contacted, even consensually, about my OCd gun, I write a formal complaint. I don't care if the contact is ostensibly legal; such a contact immediately proves that exercising your basic human right to self-defense deserves suspicion from the state--an intolerable attitude. Police can always observe from a distance.

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