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Thread: HB 2442 Hunting on Sundays. Is scheduled to be heard in subcomittee 1-26-11 Wed @ 5pm

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    HB 2442 Hunting on Sundays. Is scheduled to be heard in subcomittee 1-26-11 Wed @ 5pm

    The sunday hunting bill in the house is scheduled to be heard in subcomittee tomorrow @ 5pm. if this is of any interest to you please contact the delegates in the subcomittee and request that they approve HB2442 so that it will be heard by the full comittee this session. i have included the email addresses for the sub-comittee members below.

    Thanks,

    Joe



    House Agriculture, Chesapeake and Natural Resources
    Sub-Committee: #2 Natural Resources


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Membership: Ware, R.L. (Chairman), Wright, Pogge, Edmunds, Wilt, Plum, Lewis, Englin

    Meets: Wednesday, 5:00 p.m., 4th Floor West

    Agendas | Subcommittee Reports



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    Sub-Committee dockets:

    There are no sub-committee dockets available at this time.
    Legislation in sub-committee: (registered users: create report or comma-delimited file)

    HB 1889 Tracking dogs; allows use thereof to find wounded or dead bear or deer, etc.
    HB 2176 Stocking of game birds, animals, and fish; GIF to receive approval from local government.
    HB 2181 Coalbed methane gas; conflicting claims to ownership.
    HB 2287 Nonhazardous solid waste management facilities; annual fee.
    HB 2415 Hunting license, special; established for partially disabled veterans.
    HB 2442 Hunting; allows a person to hunt any wild bird or wild animal on Sundays.
    HB 2443 Hunting deer; allows persons to hunt with a bow and arrow or crossbow on Sundays.


    DelLWare@house.virginia.gov


    DelTWright@house.virginia.gov



    DelBPogge@house.virginia.gov


    DelJEdmunds@house.virginia.gov


    deltwilt@house.virginia.gov

    DelKPlum@house.virginia.gov


    DelLLewis@house.virginia.gov


    DelDEnglin@house.virginia.gov

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    This is an important bill for many of us. For every person having a CHP only to carry to the pizza parlor, there are hundreds of us that carry in the fields daily while working, hiking, hunting or otherwise doing what we do.

    Sunday hunting has been something Virginia has resisted for some unknown reason. It's much like the Restaurant bill because it keeps coming back stronger.

    While I may be squarely at odds with the Dog hunters tonight on another bill, hopefully we can stop fighting long enough to get this bill through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    This is an important bill for many of us. For every person having a CHP only to carry to the pizza parlor, there are hundreds of us that carry in the fields daily while working, hiking, hunting or otherwise doing what we do.

    Sunday hunting has been something Virginia has resisted for some unknown reason. It's much like the Restaurant bill because it keeps coming back stronger.

    While I may be squarely at odds with the Dog hunters tonight on another bill, hopefully we can stop fighting long enough to get this bill through.
    I agree. It makes no sense to prohibit hunting on Sundays. From the secular perspective, there's nothing special about Sunday that doesn't also apply to Saturday. (And, courtesy of the First Amendment, they really shouldn't be using non-secular reasons as the basis for such a prohibition.)

    If they had to pick a day to prohibit hunting, wouldn't it make more sense to make it the middle of the week, so people don't have to take as much time off work? (Not saying that it should be prohibited on any day of the week, only that if they actually do have a reason for such a prohibition, a different day would make more sense.)

    And what would be the best way for us to remove the legal presumption that if you are carrying a handgun in the woods during hunting season, it is for hunting? That really needs to go.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    And what would be the best way for us to remove the legal presumption that if you are carrying a handgun in the woods during hunting season, it is for hunting? That really needs to go.
    That's been gone. There has to be more than mere possession of any weapon. Read the hunting on Sunday provisions.

    What needs to go is the CHP Perk that allows Chippers to carry while bow or ML hunting.
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-26-2011 at 02:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That's been gone. There has to be more than mere possession of any weapon. Read the hunting on Sunday provisions.
    Then that is a change. When I did a hunter safety course last October, they mentioned that presumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    What needs to go is the CHP Perk that allows Chippers to carry while bow or ML hunting.
    Alternately, they need to just get rid of the prohibition on carrying a handgun while bow or ML hunting.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    Then that is a change. When I did a hunter safety course last October, they mentioned that presumption.

    Alternately, they need to just get rid of the prohibition on carrying a handgun while bow or ML hunting.
    Hunter safety courses aren't all accurate. There has to be something that indicates intent...like sitting in a tree stand or aiming at a Deer.
    The change came about as a result of a landowner who carried a shotgun all the time. He was charged with hunting on Sunday because he had a gun.

    That was actually noted in the Game Law brochure printed by DGIF.

    Alternately, they need to just get rid of the prohibition on carrying a handgun while bow or ML hunting
    We finally agree on something!

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Hunter safety courses aren't all accurate. There has to be something that indicates intent...like sitting in a tree stand or aiming at a Deer.
    The change came about as a result of a landowner who carried a shotgun all the time. He was charged with hunting on Sunday because he had a gun.

    That was actually noted in the Game Law brochure printed by DGIF.
    Ahh. I wasn't just referring to hunting on Sundays, though. I was referring to the way that the laws and regulations treat handguns like rifles for purposes of hunting.

    Virginia DGIF:
    Pistols and revolvers are lawful for deer and bear hunting only in those counties where hunting deer and bear with rifles is lawful. Cartridges used must be .23 caliber or larger and have a manufacturer's rating of 350 foot-pounds muzzle energy or more.
    According to them, the prohibition isn't just during bow and ML season, but also in parts of the state where rifle is prohibited for deer, even during firearms season.

    It's just an all-around stupid restriction. If they don't have proof that you actually tried to shoot something with a handgun, then they shouldn't be able to just presume that you were intending to. Handguns are commonly carried for defense, rifles aren't.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    Ahh. I wasn't just referring to hunting on Sundays, though. I was referring to the way that the laws and regulations treat handguns like rifles for purposes of hunting.

    Virginia DGIF: According to them, the prohibition isn't just during bow and ML season, but also in parts of the state where rifle is prohibited for deer, even during firearms season.

    It's just an all-around stupid restriction. If they don't have proof that you actually tried to shoot something with a handgun, then they shouldn't be able to just presume that you were intending to. Handguns are commonly carried for defense, rifles aren't.
    Actually, the precedent covers all carry, not just on Sunday....but only while NOT HUNTING.

    While you are hunting, the weapons you have have to be legal for the area and game. That is still a problem.

    For instance, while Muzzle Loading hunting, I carry a LeMat as backup. My cartridge guns wouldn't be legal because I don't have a permit.

    During the rifle season, I have to carry something .23 or larger (not a problem for me) while hunting. I can switch to whatever I want while just walking around the farm.

    If I went to a Shotgun only County, it wouldn't even be legal.

    Now for CHP'S, they can carry whatever they want regardless of local restrictions...even while hunting. They just can't shoot game with it in the prohibited areas.
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-26-2011 at 03:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Actually, the precedent covers all carry, not just on Sunday....but only while NOT HUNTING.
    I'll have to read up on that. Do you have a citation for the actual precedent, or any other sources that would help clarify the details?

    It all boils down to the fact that it's still a pretty stupid restriction. A handgun isn't a rifle, and (with only a handful of exceptions) isn't commonly used for hunting in Virginia. If someone is carrying a handgun, the legal presumption should be that it is for defense, regardless of whether they are hunting in a shotgun-only county or not. It should require additional proof that you were actually hunting with the handgun, rather than merely carrying it while hunting.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    I'll have to read up on that. Do you have a citation for the actual precedent, or any other sources that would help clarify the details?

    It all boils down to the fact that it's still a pretty stupid restriction. A handgun isn't a rifle, and (with only a handful of exceptions) isn't commonly used for hunting in Virginia. If someone is carrying a handgun, the legal presumption should be that it is for defense, regardless of whether they are hunting in a shotgun-only county or not. It should require additional proof that you were actually hunting with the handgun, rather than merely carrying it while hunting.
    I'll have to look it up again. I spent three hours finding it last week for an argument with a Staff Member for one of the Delegates...but didn't bookmark it.

    That's not really true. Many of us do hunt with a Handgun. It really depends on where your stand is and what the conditions are. I limit myself to 75 yard shots but I'm also not as good as many others.

    I shot one Deer this year that just came up while I was in one of my fields. My Rifle was on my ATV but I was carrying my BFR. Many times I get bored in the middle of the day and either use my Contender or the 45/410 BFR to shoot rabbits and squirrels.
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-26-2011 at 03:39 PM.

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    I wish I was hunting today. Perfect weather.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    I wish I was hunting today. Perfect weather.

    +100000000000

    Not many people were there.
    Almost all bills were reported out (Unfortunately the tracking dog bill too. I've got some serious backstabbing to do).
    Talked to Lori Haas for a while and the NRA rep for a few seconds (they didn't take a position on the dog bill so I promised not to burn my NRA card that I don't have.

    Bob Duncan didn't take a position on anything but did a good job defending the positions they didn't take.

    The Farm Bureau Lobbyist spoke against Sunday hunting just like he does every year.

    There are really only two members of that subcommittee that shouldn't be run out on a rail.

    The fight continues.

    Tomorrow, FOIA bills again.
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-26-2011 at 08:45 PM.

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    Just out of curiosity, what is the number of the dog tracking bill? Is it a house bill or senate bill?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hometheaterman View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what is the number of the dog tracking bill? Is it a house bill or senate bill?
    HB 1889 Tracking dogs; allows use thereof to find wounded or dead bear or deer, etc.
    Tony Wilt | all patrons ... notes
    | add to my profiles another bill? Log in LIS Home - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bills & Resolutions Members Committees Meetings Calendars Communications Minutes Statistics Lobbyist-in-a-Box Summary as introduced:
    Tracking dogs. Allows the use of tracking dogs to find wounded or dead bear or deer during archery, muzzleloader, or firearm bear or deer hunting seasons, so long as those who are conducting the retrieval effort have permission to hunt on or have access to the land and don't have a weapon in their possession. However, if the county allows the hunting of bear or deer with dogs, hunters may carry a weapon and have unrestrained dogs while searching for the wounded or dead animal. Full text:
    01/11/11 House: Prefiled and ordered printed; offered 01/12/11 11100955D pdf | impact statement

    Status:
    01/11/11 House: Prefiled and ordered printed; offered 01/12/11 11100955D
    01/11/11 House: Referred to Committee on Agriculture, Chesapeake and Natural Resources
    01/25/11 House: Assigned ACNRsub: #2 Natural Resources
    01/26/11 House: Subcommittee recommends reporting (8-Y 0-N)

    On the surface it looks innocent enough but as with the other dog bills, there really isn't a penalty for violating it. Trespassing if you can make it stick. If they don't get the landowners permission and they won't if it's inconvenient and no one's around, they'll just turn the dogs loose and hunt.

    I suggested to the Patron that he put some teeth in the law if he had so much faith in the integrity of his doghunters...and make it a class 6 felony for hunting without permission with "Tracking Dogs".

    He looked a little shocked and I said "Hell, you make everything else a class 6 felony".

    This is a sad bill. It was introduced mostly for bear hunters on the West side of the mountains. They're an entirely different breed than the Dog Hunters on the East side. To start with, they have millions of acres of National Forest to hunt. Many of the East Siders have 30 acres or so... plus whatever they can scam hunt using the dog laws.

    Second, the West Side Bear hunters have a little more integrity than a lot of Deer Hunters on the East side.

    BTW, this an OC matter. The issue is being able to bring firearms onto private, posted property.

    After I spoke, Bob Duncan, Director of DGIF defended the position he didn't have, very well. It's funny, Kirby Birch the Lobbyist for the doghunters Assoc. has expounded long and hard about how much he hates Bob. Seems like Duncan is the best friend he has in this.

    Last edited by peter nap; 01-27-2011 at 05:34 AM.

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    Discussions on Sunday hunting


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    So would this tracking dog bill, basically replace the law that now allows people to track their dogs on other peoples land without permission that we have now? Or is this in addition to it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hometheaterman View Post
    So would this tracking dog bill, basically replace the law that now allows people to track their dogs on other peoples land without permission that we have now? Or is this in addition to it?
    In addition to it.

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    Oh okay, I was thinking this might would replace it. While I think that you should be able to retrieve your dogs, I think the law the way it's written now, is probably not the best written law.

    So is it going to get added to this so that it makes it a felony? Or is the law basically going to stay as it's written now?

    I don't think I agree that it should be a felony if someone turns dogs loose on someone else land, but I do think it should have a fine attached to it. I think a felony is a bit much especially if it's a first offense as I've met teenagers that have no respect for others land. Unfortunately, but once they've grown up a little, the realize how wrong they were. I don't think they deserve to have a felony following them their whole life just because of a mistake like that when they were younger. However, that's just my opinion, and I'm sure everyone's opinion on this is different. I do think there should be a hefty fine that makes them think twice before doing it again.
    Last edited by hometheaterman; 01-27-2011 at 08:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hometheaterman View Post
    Oh okay, I was thinking this might would replace it. While I think that you should be able to retrieve your dogs, I think the law the way it's written now, is probably not the best written law.

    So is it going to get added to this so that it makes it a felony? Or is the law basically going to stay as it's written now?

    I don't think I agree that it should be a felony if someone turns dogs loose on someone else land, but I do think it should have a fine attached to it. I think a felony is a bit much especially if it's a first offense as I've met teenagers that have no respect for others land. Unfortunately, but once they've grown up a little, the realize how wrong they were. I don't think they deserve to have a felony following them their whole life just because of a mistake like that when they were younger. However, that's just my opinion, and I'm sure everyone's opinion on this is different. I do think there should be a hefty fine that makes them think twice before doing it again.
    No, they won't add a felony penalty or for that matter, any penalty right now. I expect the full committee will move it out to the floor today.

    I may be able to convince enough Delegates to vote it down it then. I was able to pick up two more yesterday. If not it will go the the Senate. It's possible to get some changes then. If not, I've been hitting the anti hunting, anti gun members to try to vote it down there. The idea is to keep it bouncing back and forth until it dies of old age or is voted down somewhere.

    We don't want to hurt legitimate hunters but keep any legislation that the slob hunters could use, out.
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-28-2011 at 04:38 AM.

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