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Thread: User fee for out of state gun purchases through FFL?

  1. #1
    Regular Member sempercarry's Avatar
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    Angry User fee for out of state gun purchases through FFL?

    My dad just went to pick up my gold cup from Marys today and on top of the FFL fee there was a "user fee" for out of state sales on guns. according to Dan it was Gregoires doing. Anybody know about this? any way it is costing me about an extra $150.....

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    Use Tax = Sales Tax

    Washington is requiring FFL's to collect the USE tax for out of State Purchases. This is the Sales Tax that you would have paid had you purchased the gun at a local business and which you were supposed to remit to the state voluntarily (but no one does).


    In an interstate transfer of firearms the Washington gun dealer is required to collect retail sales tax from the Washington resident on the purchase price of the firearm. The retail sales tax is collected from the Washington customer at the time the customer takes possession of the firearm. Sales tax is collected on the total selling price, including freight and/or delivery charges and other amounts added, such a an amount for insurance coverage.

    If the selling price is not evident, it is up to the gun dealer to obtain this price by either requiring the purchaser to show the purchase price or to obtain that information from the out-of-state dealer. If, for whatever reason, the dealer is still unable to obtain the original purchase price, RCW 82.08.010 provides that the fair market value shall be used. It is the responsibility of the Washington gun dealer to determine the price in order to report and pay the sales tax due.

    If the firearm is obtained by gift, the instate dealer is obligated to collect use tax on the fair market value of the firearm, unless the receiving person can document that the prior owner had paid retail sales or use tax on the firearm. RCW 82.12.020(3).

    However, sales tax does not apply on the service charge for processing the required Federal and State forms and contacting the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) when the fee is stated separately from the selling price of the firearm and freight and/or delivery charges, insurance, etc.
    Last edited by Right Wing Wacko; 01-26-2011 at 12:41 AM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Yep, and I watched the FFL fees at nearly every local gun dealer, AND the general prices for firearms jump up almost immediately after this was enacted.

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    Also a few FFLs shut down their transfer operations.
    Last edited by Lucky_Dog; 01-26-2011 at 01:08 AM.
    They're over there with their guns!

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    Regular Member WinchesterModel12's Avatar
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    There are cheaper transfer fees, but the use tax will be the same.
    If guns kill people......then all of mine are defective........ UNCLE TED

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinchesterModel12 View Post
    There are cheaper transfer fees, but the use tax will be the same.
    This is going to close the price difference on a lot of guns, Internet vs Local purchase. Add back the "touch it, feel it, buy it, factor and local dealers are getting more back in the game. Also nice to have someone locally to deal with if there's a problem.

    Only people I see "skating" on the tax going forward are those who have C&R FFL's but of course there all "upstanding citizens" and will definitely see that they pay the tax on their transactions, right?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Use tax is the same as sales tax, but is defined as not being sales tax since interstate sales tax is illegal.

    In reality, though, it's sales tax by a different name, despite the 1930s opinion saying it's not.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Only people I see "skating" on the tax going forward are those who have C&R FFL's but of course there all "upstanding citizens" and will definitely see that they pay the tax on their transactions, right?
    With regard to taxes, the total number of "handguns" sold in Washington in 2010 was 113,679. The Federal Excise Tax is at 10% for revolvers and pistols. !!! $$$

    And Washington State collected the appropriate sales tax.

    I figure the nominal price for a handgun is 500.00.

    ~Whitney
    Last edited by Whitney; 01-26-2011 at 03:20 PM. Reason: fat fingers
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    Use tax is the same as sales tax, but is defined as not being sales tax since interstate sales tax is illegal.
    How is it I still get charged WA sales tax any time I buy something online?
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  10. #10
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    How is it I still get charged WA sales tax any time I buy something online?
    Because you are buying from someone that has a "brick and mortar" store in the state or an agreement with Washington to collect the tax.

    There are lots of "Internet Only" companies that don't have to collect the tax. The downside is that should the State "catch" your not paying the tax they could collect what they say is due and also fine you.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Because you are buying from someone that has a "brick and mortar" store in the state or an agreement with Washington to collect the tax.

    There are lots of "Internet Only" companies that don't have to collect the tax. The downside is that should the State "catch" your not paying the tax they could collect what they say is due and also fine you.
    But if interstate sales tax is illegal as T says, how can they have such "agreements" with the state? Bought a video game online the other day & got charged sales tax as usual, even tho they have no B&M store and are not in washington.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    But if interstate sales tax is illegal as T says, how can they have such "agreements" with the state? Bought a video game online the other day & got charged sales tax as usual, even tho they have no B&M store and are not in washington.
    Remember, it's not a Sales Tax, but a "Use Tax". Just because the rate happens to be the same doesn't make it a "Sales Tax". Taxing a user for bringing a product into the State, for use here, unfortunately is legal.

    http://dor.wa.gov/docs/reports/2010/...2010/08use.pdf

    Legally, Washington residents owe use tax on items which were not subject to sales tax.
    Examples include items purchased in other states and brought into Washington for use here,
    purchases made via mail order and the Internet (even though the out-of-state seller cannot
    be required to collect sales tax, the buyer still owes use tax), and items bought from persons
    other than registered retail vendors, such as at garage sales.
    Again, the State has entered into voluntary agreements with many companies based in other states to collect this tax. None of the "biggies" like Cheaper Than Dirt, Brownells, Midway-USA, do so yet.
    Last edited by amlevin; 01-26-2011 at 05:58 PM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    How is it I still get charged WA sales tax any time I buy something online?
    Are you sure? Can you list the retailers, and show me that none have an in-state presence?
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    Are you sure? Can you list the retailers, and show me that none have an in-state presence?
    Here is a link to WA's "rules":

    http://dor.wa.gov/content/doingbusin...s/default.aspx

    As you read, they don't necessarily have to have a "presence" in WA to be required to collect Sales Tax, and also pay B&O tax as well.

    An example might be if a "representative" of a business such as Midway-USA were to visit Gun Shows and promote their business. Midway doesn't have any location, payroll, or product in the State but by having a representative visit the state to promote their business they have established a "Nexus".

    Another example would be a company like Optics Planet that sells from their vendors stock. If one of those vendors had product in Washington, and shipped it to a Washington Customer, tax is due even though the customer bought it from a Company that was located only in another state.

    Moral is, never bend over because the State might be behind you waiting to pick your pocket.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    Are you sure? Can you list the retailers, and show me that none have an in-state presence?
    direct2drive.com, off the top o me head. Charged me sales tax on 3 of my last 4 purchases. Part of IGN, which is based in (ugh) san fran, no offices listed in WA:

    http://corp.ign.com/contact/
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Here is a link to WA's "rules":

    http://dor.wa.gov/content/doingbusin...s/default.aspx

    As you read, they don't necessarily have to have a "presence" in WA to be required to collect Sales Tax, and also pay B&O tax as well.
    Yes, they have to have a presence, though that may simply be via sales representatives. That's the whole point of the definition of "a nexus" within WA.

    That's a presence, a physical presence, of the company. Note that a retailer that sells over the internet but sends no representatives here would not be deemed as having created a nexus, though all of their products would have use tax due.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    direct2drive.com, off the top o me head. Charged me sales tax on 3 of my last 4 purchases. Part of IGN, which is based in (ugh) san fran, no offices listed in WA:

    http://corp.ign.com/contact/
    My guess, though I would have to go verify, is that they have a server farm located here.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

  18. #18
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    It's going to get harder to avoid Sales Tax in WA

    Here's some more on the subject:

    http://dor.wa.gov/content/findtaxesa...amlinefaq.aspx


    What are "remote sellers"?
    Remote sellers are businesses that sell products to customers in a state, using the Internet, mail order, or telephone, without having a physical presence in that state. These sellers currently cannot be required to collect and remit sales tax as brick-and-mortar stores must do. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1992 (Quill vs. North Dakota) that the burden of collection was too high given the number of taxing districts in the country and variations among states as to what was taxable and at what rate.
    At least the Court recognized that there would be a burden on the seller with the thousands of taxing districts allover the US.

    Washington's petition for membership has been granted, enabling the state to become a member of the SSUTA on July 1, 2008, the effective date of the legislation. Washington will then have a seat on the Governing Board of the Agreement and will be able to vote on amendments to and interpretations of the SSUTA. From that point on, it will begin receiving sales taxes voluntarily collected by remote sellers.
    The collection of Sales Tax is "Voluntary". In some cases it may be not so voluntary as it would depend on what pressure is applied by the State where the remote seller is located. They may collect sales records and make them available to "member States" in the SSUTA. I certainly wouldn't put it past California to be doing so.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member killchain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sempercarry View Post
    My dad just went to pick up my gold cup from Marys today and on top of the FFL fee there was a "user fee" for out of state sales on guns. according to Dan it was Gregoires doing. Anybody know about this? any way it is costing me about an extra $150.....
    Yup, they're slapping sales tax on out of state gun transfers.

    This guy ended up paying an extra $40 on a gun just because I bought it from a guy who lived in Oregon. Thanks Gregoire, hope that latte you bought with my money tasted good.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

  20. #20
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by killchain View Post
    Yup, they're slapping sales tax on out of state gun transfers.

    This guy ended up paying an extra $40 on a gun just because I bought it from a guy who lived in Oregon. Thanks Gregoire, hope that latte you bought with my money tasted good.
    $40 for a Latte? Must have been this big:

    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    $40 for a Latte? Must have been this big:

    No, for around $40 I believe that's their "small" size.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Indeed the use tax is something new within the last couple years, making it no cheaper to "import" guns in to the state. The super suck of it all is it makes it more expensive to get less well known guns. Some shops will order you dang near anything, but by doing so it's usually not as good of a deal as if it were a regularly stocked item.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SayWhat View Post
    Indeed the use tax is something new within the last couple years, making it no cheaper to "import" guns in to the state. The super suck of it all is it makes it more expensive to get less well known guns. Some shops will order you dang near anything, but by doing so it's usually not as good of a deal as if it were a regularly stocked item.
    It is not new within the last couple years. It has been in place for the past EIGHTY years. They've just become strict about enforcement recently.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SayWhat View Post
    Indeed the use tax is something new within the last couple years, making it no cheaper to "import" guns in to the state. The super suck of it all is it makes it more expensive to get less well known guns. Some shops will order you dang near anything, but by doing so it's usually not as good of a deal as if it were a regularly stocked item.
    That's not only the case for guns, but just about anything else you buy from a store. Special Orders usually do cost more.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    No, for around $40 I believe that's their "small" size.
    After drinking one of these just don't travel far from the "facilities"

    I can see one having to make several stops on his way home






    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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