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Thread: Guns in churches offer a powerful contradiction to claims of faith in God's protectio

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Guns in churches offer a powerful contradiction to claims of faith in God's protectio

    snip

    I've always found it ironic that some people carry, or want to carry, guns into churches. A couple of years back, there was a big to-do over armed ministers in Detroit pulpits. And now that a Michigan legislator has proffered a bill that rolls back restrictions on where guns can be carried, including churches, the issue has again come to light.

    snip


    http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...tml#incart_hbx

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    Until God gives me bullet proof skin or turns me into Wolverine, I'll carry everywhere I legally can. I'm sure Pastor Winters was feeling Gods protection when he was murdered in church during mass.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,506820,00.html

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    This guy is anti religion and is using this as an exscuse to pontificate.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Funny this has come up. Speaking of pontificating their position and a judge to boot, what a surprise.

    From gun.newsdaily.com

    US NEWS Jan 25th, 2011 NO GUNS IN CHURCH
    MACON, Ga., Jan. 25 (UPI) -- A federal court in Georgia upheld a state law banning guns in places of worship because practicing a religion does not involve carrying a firearm.

    U.S. District Judge Ashley Royal in Macon Monday dismissed a lawsuit brought by gun-rights group GeorgiaCarry.org and the minister at the Baptist Tabernacle in Thomaston, challenging the U.S. Supreme Court decision last summer to let states and municipalities legislate their own laws regarding firearms possession, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported.

    Georgia changed its law in compliance with the high court's ruling, allowing guns at "public gatherings," but prohibiting firearms in specific places, including houses of worship, the Journal-Constitution said. Plaintiffs said church members' attempts to practice their faith was "impermissibly burdened" by Georgia's 2010 law.


    Royal said Georgia law violated neither the First Amendment right to religious freedom nor the Second Amendment's right to bear arms in maintaining that guns may not be carried in churches, synagogues and mosques. "In very large part, my motivation to carry a firearm as a matter of habit derives from one of my Lord's last recorded statements at the Last Supper, that, 'Whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.' I believe that this injunction requires me to obtain, keep and carry a firearm wherever I happen to be," the Web site's president, Ed Stone, said.


    The judge said churchgoers could leave their guns in their cars or temporarily surrender their firearms with security or management at the church door. Regarding the Rev. Jonathan Wilkins of Baptist Tabernacle, Royal said he could keep a gun in his church office with permission from the church management.


    State Rep. Bobby Franklin, R-Marietta, filed a bill Monday to remove places of worship from the list of gun-prohibited locations.
    Last edited by Venator; 01-26-2011 at 01:16 PM.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Guns in church! Guns in government buildings! Guns in plain sight! Guns hidden in pockets! Guns! Guns! Guns!

    A person's right to defend themselves by exercising their right to keep and bear arms doesn't magically, or even miraculously, stop at the door to a building... not even a building dedicated to worshiping the deity of choice whether that be a church or, since some worship power, a government building.

    Sorry weenie control freak lefty elitists.... the right to keep and bear arms supersedes your fear and bigotry driven desire to control... and your transparently opportunistic attempt to ride the controversy of religion to further your gun control agenda.

    "We the people" are wise to "the few full of leftist elitist BS" and are believing none of it.

    I personally believe that there should be absolutely no place where carrying a gun should be illegal.... not one.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 01-26-2011 at 01:57 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Buildings

    Since becoming a Christian I have come to understand that the "church" is The Body of Christ and is made up of the people that are believers in Him, not a building that they meet in as the state of Michigan would have one believe.springerdave.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by springerdave View Post
    Since becoming a Christian I have come to understand that the "church" is The Body of Christ and is made up of the people that are believers in Him, not a building that they meet in as the state of Michigan would have one believe.springerdave.
    Very well put sir.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    I personally believe that there should be absolutely no place where carrying a gun should be illegal.... not one.
    Correctional facility?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Correctional facility?
    Yes, even there guns should be legal.. because those on the wrong side of the bars have been denied their freedom...including the freedom to leave the facility in order to procure a gun... but, in my belief, they have not lost the right to keep and bear... just temporarily do not have the freedom to exercise it.

    We should remember that when we incarcerate someone we are punishing them by restricting their personal freedom.... there isn't any need to restrict their rights.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 01-26-2011 at 06:13 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Since the beginning of the christen church, many church goers have went armed, first it was a swords, then muskets, now we have modern day handguns. Back in the early days of the church, just as we have today, many criminals pray on those that attend church. Evil does not stop at the front doors of any church or other houses of worship. Criminals do not care if it is a house of God, criminals only care about what there going to do (rob, steel, rape, destroy). Look at al the other gun free zones that where put up to stop criminals, all it does is stop the law abiding citizens from defending themselves from crime. Criminals do not care about what is posted as a gun free zone. The criminals are going to take there guns where they want, and commit there crimes any way, all gun free zone do is give criminals unarmed victims

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Cool

    When the Isrealites were allowed to leave Babylon to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem,they were required to carry a sword in one hand while they did their work with their other hand,in order to defend themselves against their enimies.Sounds good to me!God expects us to defend the life he gave us.He expects us to work and feed ourselves(he doesn't fill our fridges miraculously)!DUH!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Regular Member MarineSgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by springerdave View Post
    Since becoming a Christian I have come to understand that the "church" is The Body of Christ and is made up of the people that are believers in Him, not a building that they meet in as the state of Michigan would have one believe.springerdave.
    I wonder what Michigan considers a church... Is it an entity that has tax-exempt status as a church? What if I home church? Could a gathering at a public school be considered church?
    Someone who can't be trusted to walk free in public with a firearm shouldn't be walking around free.

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    Luke 22:36, as I have pointed out before, commands believers to carry a weapon. You are supposed to rely on faith in God, but also to take an active role in living your life. You could have faith in God to help you out of a shipwreck for instance, but you may in fact need to do a little swimming. Before you get on the ship, you would do well to learn to swim, and perhaps prepare for a shipwreck that will likely never occur. You would do well to teach someone else the same, by chance, they might be on that boat too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Luke 22:36, as I have pointed out before, commands believers to carry a weapon. You are supposed to rely on faith in God, but also to take an active role in living your life. You could have faith in God to help you out of a shipwreck for instance, but you may in fact need to do a little swimming. Before you get on the ship, you would do well to learn to swim, and perhaps prepare for a shipwreck that will likely never occur. You would do well to teach someone else the same, by chance, they might be on that boat too.
    I don't believe it commands all believers to carry a weapon (since the command was given only to his disciples present with him during that time, possibly to fulfill prophesy that he explains in the next verse). But even if it doesn't apply as a command to us, it can still apply as justification. Arming ones self is not condemned in the Bible, and this serves as an example of where Christ not only permitted it, but commanded it.

    With that said, back to the original thought: I don't believe arming myself makes me any less faithful in God's protection. If I'm walking a dark street and I'm attacked, and lightning smites the attacker, we are quick to look to that as an act of God and His protection. But what if, by His omniscience and plan, He has chosen to use something other than an 'act of God' to defend me? What if I'm walking at night and am attacked and a cop just happens to be patrolling the area? What if I'm attacked and my dog decides to take a bite out of his ass? What if I'm attacked and I draw a firearm? Who's to say that God is not protecting me through allowing me to be armed? Who are we to second guess the methods and tools of God's protection? Or His will for that matter?

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    As I read it, the passage was given immediately before his capture and crucifixion so they and his followers then and in the future would know how to conduct themselves until His return. The previous state of events were with Him, and when the disciples were asked to go without certain normal items for the sake of building their faith and trust in Him as their provider.

    Either way, the RKBA is condoned by the highest authority.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 01-26-2011 at 09:25 PM.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    from the list of MCL 28.425o (Criminal Empowerment Zones)
    "Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons"

    I've always wondered "who" such an official is. Perhaps for Catholics, it would be the priest. But let's say you attend a church where all are "officials" (office holders in the true sense of the word). Since no office in some churches is above any others, and some churches teach that all members are part of the "priesthood"... could someone give permission to him-/her-self? Whatever the State of Michigan would decide in such a case, would that be state control of the church? Michigan has some pretty strong language in its constitution regarding Religious liberty.

    "Sec. 39. The Legislature shall pass no law to prevent any person from worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of his own conscience, or to compel any person to attend, erect, or support any place of religious worship, or to pay tithes, taxes or other rates for the support of any minister of the gospel or teacher of religion."
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarineSgt View Post
    I wonder what Michigan considers a church... Is it an entity that has tax-exempt status as a church? What if I home church? Could a gathering at a public school be considered church?
    The ONLY time that I could ever find "church" defined without qualifiers was in Michigan's liquor law... not a perfect fit but I would wager that any definition a judge would find acceptable might be close to this:
    MCL 436.1107, Section 107(7)
    “Church” means an entire house or structure set apart primarily for use for purposes of public worship, and which is tax exempt under the laws of this state, and in which religious services are held and with which a clergyman is associated, and the entire structure of which is kept for that use and not put to any other use inconsistent with that use.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    There's a terrible flood, and a fellow climbs to the highest part of his roof and prays for God to rescue him.

    A boat comes along, and they say 'Jump in!' and the fellow says 'It's OK, God will rescue me!'

    Another boat, same response.

    The water is now lapping at his waist, and a helicopter flys in. 'Grab the rope!' they say. 'No, No, God will rescue me!'

    The water closes over his head, and he is soon standing in front of God. 'God.' he says, 'Why didn't you rescue me?'

    And God replies, 'I sent two boats and a helicopter! What were you waiting for?'

    He sent me a Glock; how about you?

    I find absolutely no contradiction in the term 'Armed Christian'

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    Cool

    I was thinking about the same poem.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    d
    He sent me a Glock; how about you?

    I find absolutely no contradiction in the term 'Armed Christian'
    I was lead to a 1911 on several occasions , but the decision to accept was left to me.

    In at least one instance, I did so on faith alone.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    snip

    I've always found it ironic that some people carry, or want to carry, guns into churches. A couple of years back, there was a big to-do over armed ministers in Detroit pulpits. And now that a Michigan legislator has proffered a bill that rolls back restrictions on where guns can be carried, including churches, the issue has again come to light.

    snip


    http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...tml#incart_hbx
    I have read several articles by this guy, all I can say is that he is a whack job!

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I was lead to a 1911 on several occasions , but the decision to accept was left to me.

    In at least one instance, I did so on faith alone.
    BPOTD*, I snorted my peanuts.


    *Best Post of the Day

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I was lead to a 1911 on several occasions , but the decision to accept was left to me.

    In at least one instance, I did so on faith alone.
    I converted; I used to be 1911 Orthodox, now I'm Pentaglocktal.

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    there are many passages in the bible that stats that we are allowed to defend ourselves. exodus 22/2 for one. there is nothing wrong in defending ones self, no matter where

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    I see no contradiction. God gives us tools to use. If we are too stupid to use them, we just meet Him sooner. Same reason why we should see doctors. God can heal us, however, he uses doctors to do His work.

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