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Thread: Silly Cops in East Grand Forks MN.

  1. #1
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    Silly Cops in East Grand Forks MN.

    Hey guys, it's my first post. Sadly, it's about silly cops and their silly adrenaline high's.

    I was just coming home from the gym in Grand Forks, ND (right across the river from East Grand in MN) when I looked in my rear-view and saw a lone Patrol car following me. He must've been bored and it was about 3 in the am so I suppose he was making sure I wasn't doing anything I didn't need to be doing.

    Well, I was just turning into my parking lot and he turned on his cherries so I stopped, calmly (I don't get excited very easily) and sat back. I was packing my 1911 openly in my Miami-Classic (Cocked and locked because that's how you carry the damn thing) and didn't really even think about it as the officer walked up to the window. You should have seen his damn eyes.

    "Put your hands on the steering wheel!" His voice came out in almost scream-like fashion. "And don't move!" He had his gun out, but not pointed at me, which made me wrinkle my eye brows with annoyance and shake my head.

    "You want my carry-permit?" I asked calmly, staring at him like he was a 12 year old who didn't understand what was happening.

    He told me to keep my hands on the steering wheel and then he called for backup which came chirping along on the icy road that runs by Northland Community and Technial College. Which partner at his side, officer number one got me out of the car, put me against the vehicle, took my gun out of my shoulder-holster, set it on my drivers' seat of all places! Then he took my wallet out of my pocket, got my credentials, and climbed in the car with me (driver's seat of course).

    We had a good conversation mainly concerning how much he was overreacting as his partner searched my car for "any more weapons" and ammo for my 1911. The guy about blew his stack when he found my AR15 shoulder harness with mags in it (Empty were they? Phenomenal). Then he got out of the vehicle, took off my cuffs and told me to stay by his car.

    Officer number one then proceeded to try to understand how to unload my 1911. It dumbfounded him. I had to verbally walk him through it, reassuring him several times that if he clicked down the thumb-safety, the gun would not randomly fire. When it was all said and done, he proceeded to tell me he was going to buy one, but picked his XDM instead. Guess the 1911 was too complicated for him.

    The last bit of our conversation involved him telling me how I should NOT carry it with a bullet in the chamber and the hammer back. He said that one second I might gain if I needed to draw it wasn't worth how nervous it made a guy. Silly Cop. What am I supposed to do? Ask for a second so I can load my gun?

    At the very end, as they were releasing me, he put my gun in the trunk of my car, unloaded and asked me if I understould why he was doing that. I responded "No, it doesn't make sense actually. It should go where it's supposed to be: in my holster." And he replied with.

    "It's for the safety of me and my partner."

    I just shook my head, waved goodbye as they drove away, opened my trunk, and put my gun in my holster. And that was the end of my encounter with MN, bored out of their minds Police. I ended up with a warning for having a blinker out. It sure was an irritating scenario for a damn turn signal.

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    e95070:

    Are Police in Minnesota used to seeing Persons Carrying Firearms Lawfully?

    I would not Know, as I have NEVER been to Minnesota.

    aadvark
    Last edited by aadvark; 01-26-2011 at 05:13 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Move along; nothing to see here. Just some uninformed uniformed guys violating some other guy's Constitutional rights.

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    Regular Member robdoar's Avatar
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    Submit a MN Govt data practices act request. Get officer names, and file a complaint with CO.

    What was the reason for pulling you over?
    Political Director - MN Gun Owners Caucus/PAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    Submit a MN Govt data practices act request. Get officer names, and file a complaint with CO.

    What was the reason for pulling you over?
    Mayber even see if you can find a hungry lawyer to sue the police and put them thru the drill of explaining how they came to teh determination that you were both "armed and presently dangerous," see Terry v. Ohio, in order to justify seizing your weapon; and oh, what "probable cause" they had to search your wallet.

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    Regular Member robdoar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    what "probable cause" they had to search your wallet.
    or your CAR. Did you consent to search?
    Political Director - MN Gun Owners Caucus/PAC
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    Certified Glock Armorer - Permit to Carry Instructor - Aegis Outdoors

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    I can't even begin to count the number of times they violated your rights. You have a valid carry permit and yet they detained you in handcuffs for what? Then the fact that they didn't know how to unload a 1911 and told you how you should carry a pistol they were too stupid to even know how to drop a mag and cycle a slide? "Silly" is a very nice way to put it for dealing with rights violating morons. At the very least, I would file a complaint. Actually, I would file suit under 1983, but that's just me. Slow night, so let's roust someone. To hell with his rights.

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    Thanks for the support.

    I was actually pulled over for having a light out, and no I didn't give consent to them searching my car, nor did I sign any waver allowing it. I ended up just brushing them off as idiots and shaking my head, then grinning at them sarcastically in the end.
    I know they fiddled with my rights, but at the time I just wanted to get it behind me. Oh, and I continue to carry my 1911 in a holster cocked and locked. Why in the world wouldn't I? Haha. You guys are great, by the way.
    Oh, and right across the bridge in Grand Forks, ND I've had conversations or situations where I've been around cops about 5 times. They are ALWAYS cool. I guess the college kids that call themselves cops in MN just think too highly of themselves to let a common citizen defend himself. Even though I'm 90% more likely to keep a level head than these two nervous, blumbling idiots.

    Laterz,

    E.J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    Submit a MN Govt data practices act request. Get officer names, and file a complaint with CO.

    What was the reason for pulling you over?
    I had a blinker out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    or your CAR. Did you consent to search?
    Nope. He said they wanted to make sure I didn't have anymore weapons. Which I don't understand since my weapon was legal in the first place. "What's the difference, fat man? You're not going to be able to do anything with that one either, so bugger off!"

  11. #11
    Regular Member Bowers's Avatar
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    that's some bullsh!t right there. I'm right across the river in Grand Forks, and I've never had an experiance like that. Been pulled over 3 times while carrying, told them about it twice, didn't the third time. (I was actually concealing). But I've never had them freak out like that. It's always *oh cool, whatever* and they go about their stuff. And making sure you didn't have any more weapons? I would have just said, "yeah I have more weapons, and they're legal too! These aren't the weapons you're looking for. You may go about yoru buisness. Move along."

    Glad to hear about someone else actualy active in this area. check out the ND threads once in a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by e95070 View Post
    Hey guys, it's my first post. Sadly, it's about silly cops and their silly adrenaline high's.
    First off, welcome to the forum Sorry to hear about your negative encounter. The officer overreacted to the situation. As a former military and civilian law enforcement officer, I can understand the importance of officer safety—as well as concern for the citizen. The officer should have noticed your weapon and politely asked for your documentation.

    Once you have provided those documents, I would just check everything out and release you. This is how most of us do things in Indiana I have never disarmed someone who was lawfully carrying—as this is actually unsafe for both the citizen and the officer. If you are good to go, you are good to go.
    Last edited by AFPVet; 01-28-2011 at 12:04 AM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Bowers's Avatar
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    And neither MN or ND have a duty to inform. So unless they spot it, it should never even be an issue

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    To the OP

    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    Submit a MN Govt data practices act request. Get officer names, and file a complaint with CO.

    What was the reason for pulling you over?
    Date, time, location, officers name - anything you have.

    This should be brought to the attention of Chief Hedlund.

    Inconsistencies need to be resolved for the benefit of others.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    May we review pertinent case law?

    Hello OP,

    Some of this does not apply, because you were forced by law to give ID since you were stopped for a moving violation; however, this is all good info to have top of mind.

    Terry v. Ohio details the difference between an investigative detention and PC for arrest.

    If LEO has PC, he can arrest you. It is a done deal.

    If LEO can articulate reasons for suspecting that a crime is afoot, he has "reasonable suspicion" or RAS. Under this circumstance, he can detain you for further investigation. He can shackle you and perform a frisk; a frisk limited to a search for weapons, as LEO has the right to protect himself. Duran v. Douglas, 9th Circus, explains that LEO needs reasonable belief that a crime or dangerous activity is afoot to detain.

    If LEO is on a "fishing expedition" and searches you or your car based on his "fishing" for an infraction to nail you with, especially after you have notified LEO that "I do not consent to any searches of my person or belongings" and you finish with "am I free to leave", LEO has violated your 4A rights. You are "detained" if you feel you are not free to leave (Michigan v. Chestnut, SCOTUS).

    42 USC 1983 creates the procedure to sue LEO for his law-breaking. With "clearly established" case law relating to enumerated rights, LEO may lose his qualified immunity.

    I told one LEO who illegally demanded my ID while I was sitting in a chair at a city park while reading court documents for a pending case, that if he illegally detains me and forces me to provide ID, that I would ask the judge to force LEO's wife to write the punitive damage award check to me as I would sue under 42 USC 1983.

    "Officer, I will say nothing with or without my lawyer." Talk to a judge officer! If your lawyer allows you to answer questions in a booking or interogation room, fire him!

    Remember US. v. Ubilles: The court noted that the situation was no different if police were notified "that Ubilles possessed a wallet..." The court compared a wallet to a legally carried gun!

    In US v. King, the 10th Circuit ruled that a firearm alone did not create a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, and they ruled that "permitting such detentions would render the Fourth Amendment functionally meaningless."

    Judge Black explains why your rights were violated in his judgement for Matthew St.John. Here it is: http://www.nmcourt.fed.us/Drs-Web/vi...-08cv00994.pdf The cops involved paid St.John $21,000 out of their own pockets!

    Duran v. Douglas (SCOTUS) is another good case. This case confirms Terry v. Ohio. RAS is needed to detain.

    Arizona v. Hicks (SCOTUS) stated that serial numbers of guns may be taken if in plain view and run through a data base after the detention, unless RAS exists for further investigation.

    I am a big fan of 10A. However, federal constitutional law is the only supreme law of the land. Your situation is definately a 42 USC 1983 civil rights case.

    At the least, please call Internal Affairs and arrange for a meeting with the police officer's Chief or Sherriff.

    Carry-on!

    markm
    Last edited by MarkBofRAdvocate; 02-05-2011 at 11:50 AM. Reason: fixed typo

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    When someone is a "hit and run" poster, does not give any details that may be confirmed (time and place), even after being asked, then they and their story become most suspect.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Troll or "hit and run"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    When someone is a "hit and run" poster, does not give any details that may be confirmed (time and place), even after being asked, then they and their story become most suspect.
    Hey Grapeshot,

    You are probably correct; however, we can try to be positivie here. Maybe he contacted a lawyer and the lawyer told him to **** the **** up.

    Sometimes, hopefull rationalizing gets me through the day!

    markm

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    When someone is a "hit and run" poster, does not give any details that may be confirmed (time and place), even after being asked, then they and their story become most suspect.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    Hey Grapeshot,

    You are probably correct; however, we can try to be positivie here. Maybe he contacted a lawyer and the lawyer told him to **** the **** up.

    Sometimes, hopefull rationalizing gets me through the day!

    markm
    I am positively positive that I sad "suspect."

    Never any harm in posting publicly available information. Place, time etc can then be confirmed via FOIA request.

    Let me know if he comes back and sets the record straight.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Roger that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I am positively positive that I sad "suspect."

    Never any harm in posting publicly available information. Place, time etc can then be confirmed via FOIA request.

    Let me know if he comes back and sets the record straight.
    For sure!

    markm

  20. #20
    McX
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    sounds to me like you need a Trunk Monkey!

    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/116989...y_compilation/

  21. #21
    Regular Member Bowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    sounds to me like you need a Trunk Monkey!

    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/116989...y_compilation/
    Every state needs constitutional monkey carry!

  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    sounds to me like you need a Trunk Monkey!

    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/116989...y_compilation/
    I shall remember to remember that.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
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    Ahhh, details.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Date, time, location, officers name - anything you have.

    This should be brought to the attention of Chief Hedlund.

    Inconsistencies need to be resolved for the benefit of others.
    It was January 17th I believe, about 4am. No officers names, though they were both overweight and I could pick them out of a line up in no time. Ha, now they sound like the criminals.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    When someone is a "hit and run" poster, does not give any details that may be confirmed (time and place), even after being asked, then they and their story become most suspect.
    Sorry I didn't respond sooner. The emails from this site don't seem to make it through my spam filter. This was January 17th, I think, of 2010. It was about 4am. There were two officers and it took place in the parking lot of 1912 5th Ave. NE in East Grand forks. The second officer didn't arrive until he was contacted via radio.
    Sure, the officers may have been frightened, but they also did not understand my rights as a person with a carry permit, now did they? I like cops and have several friends who are officers including Chief of Police Mike Docken of my hometown Hallock, MN. I don't pick fights and I don't let myself come off as an *******. I just wish they were smarter. Everyone would benefit then.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Pyro01's Avatar
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    I would keep a voice recorder on you at all times. If you got pulled over, all you had to do was flip that puppy on, and then when all those events transpired you'd have evidence that you did not consent to a search and that they violated your rights. If this ever happens to me, I'm gonna have it on record. I use my iPhone for long recordings like when I'm open carrying and I got an old digital voice recorder that records about 30 minutes at standard quality in the car. I'll be taking some classes soon so I can apply for MN permit because even though I live in WI I travel to MN quite often.
    Join Wisconsin Carry today, defend your rights!

    Wisconsin Carry member since March, 2011

    "The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
    - Thomas Jefferson

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