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Thread: VCDL Meeting - NOVA - Annandale - THU 02-17-2011

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    VCDL Meeting - NOVA - Annandale - THU 02-17-2011

    02/17/11 - Mason District Government Center - Large Conference Room

    Facebook Link: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=146147432110283

    Meeting Schedule (Unless Otherwise Noted Above):
    7:30 - 8:00 pm -- Informal Gathering
    8:00 - 9:30 pm -- Meeting
    9:30 - ?:?? pm -- Informal Gathering at a Local Restaurant

    Mason District Governmental Center
    6507 Columbia Pike
    Annandale, VA 22003

    Special Guest expected from the Mason District Fairfax County Police to discuss how they handle a "man with a gun" call based on this thread: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?84467
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    VCDL Meeting - NOVA - Annandale - WED 02-17-2011
    The 17th is a Thursday.

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    I caught that after I posted it and emailed and see they already fixed it.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    then I won't have to send you a post card

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedKnightt View Post
    then I won't have to send you a post card
    go ahead.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    What is the weather forecast?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Felix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    What is the weather forecast?
    Temp prediction


    Precip prediction


    Daily carry: SIG P229 .40 S&W

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Anyone know if the Dem opponent to Petersen will be there too?

    Edit: Yes... From VA-Alert: "Also, Gerarda Culipher, a candidate running against Senator Chap Petersen in the elections in November, will address the group about her candidacy."
    Last edited by IanB; 02-07-2011 at 06:56 AM.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member 25sierraman's Avatar
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    SWEET! for once I don't have shift on the day of a meeting. Hopefully I can make it. Anyone want to get some Korean BBQ Afterward?
    HOOAH?

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    Called Gross' office to see if there were any regulations against wearing red shirts on Fridays, got hung up on.

    Touchy subject?

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Sooper Seekret Meetup still on? I should be there about 1830.

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    Was my first meeting and I enjoyed it. Tons of folks, got to shake hands with a few OCDO forum celebrities, met one of the officers who arrested me 10 years ago, all in all was a blast. Looking forward to the next.

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Good meeting.. we could have gone another hour or so with questions and scenario's. I am glad they came.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Great meeting. Glad to see you guys.

    The uber-statist candidate for Loudoun sheriff was a joke. I was definitely unimpressed. He just confessed to being part of a vast sucking sound near my tax money and the national debt. Bet he just loves no-knock warrants.

    The first speaker was a little better. At least he informed us on the state of our rights regarding defensive lethal force, rather than spend most of his time telling us how great he was. I would have liked to hear what he meant exactly when he said he supported 2A. We're a saavy crowd. We wanna hear the particulars; we know how politicians say they support 2A, but then say 2A only means guns for the National Guard.

    I almost fell out of my chair laughing at the cop who did most of the speaking. Early on he said he wanted cop-armed citizen encounters to not be adversarial. Then later, during scenario role-playing with Philip Van Cleave, totally contradicted himself by saying he was checking to see if Philip was drunk and (insert two or three other characteristics here). Not adversarial? Suuuuuure. What a buncha double-speak. They want us to be un-adversarial is what they mean, to not know they are in fact being entirely adversarial. The old wisdom applies: The cop is not your friend. He is looking for a violation.

    Oh, and that business about going in Philip's pocket for his CHP! What a hilarious over-caution. The damn statute (18.2-308H) says, "...shall display...". It does not say a goddam thing about me having to let a cop reach in my pocket, get my wallet, and have access to all the contents of my wallet. Oh, and don't forget. If there is anything in your wallet that could somehow be construed to give reasonable suspicion or probable cause of a separate offense, you just just consented to the cop looking in your wallet, and anything else he finds (or puts there, although hopefully rare) might now be admissable in court.

    And, did you notice the way he pestered Philip when Philip didn't want to talk, saying he was busy and had to go? Philip clearly refused consent to an encounter in his first response, but cop wasn't willing to respect his right to refuse, trying to get Philip to change his refusal (rather than respect it) by suggesting it will only take a moment, and, after that was refused, even offering Philip a ride. This was the same cop who earlier had said there were three types of encounters, including consensual.

    And, they wanted to build support and respect. <snort>
    Last edited by Citizen; 02-18-2011 at 01:12 AM.

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    Regular Member crazydude6030's Avatar
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    Citizen, I think you saw more then I did. I had never thought about the wallet, but it makes sense. BTW, where you the gentlemen asking the bulk of the questions?

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    snip-
    And, they wanted to build support and respect. <snort>

    I know this didn't surprise you.

    Look what a former OCDO poster (Wooly) posted on VAGT:


    http://www.vaguntrader.com/forums/ub...t_Of#Post89464

    This was the question posted>
    Question to all Law Enforcement:

    How do you feel about Citizens having the ability to legally CCW?


    Quote Originally Posted by Wooly
    That will be a lot more guns on the streets for starters. Gun violence would probably go up simply because of lack of training and heat of the moment shootings. The good thing about CCW is the application process and the training needed to get your card (one time training is better then no training)I personally treat everyone as if they are armed and I always have a plan just in case they decide to cook off and start shooting. So to sum it up I think the current processes is better then none. I meet a lot of people that should not be within 500 feet of ANY firearm. It's sucks that the average everyday gun owner takes the heat for all the idiots with guns. Do you really want a crack head walking around with a pistol, because it wont just be the hard working, tax paying, apple pie eating American packing if they ever pass a bill like that.



    Edit:
    I'm just glad the majority of LEO's aren't like or think like these guys.
    Last edited by Marco; 02-18-2011 at 09:54 AM. Reason: edit:

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Wooly's arguments are just a wash, rinse and repeat of the standard anti-gun argument.

    Gun violence has NOT gone up, but rather down where gun laws were relaxed.

    Someone "cooking off" (scare rhetoric) implies that the someone is mentally unstable and no law will prevent that. In fact it is a good argument for having defensive tools at hand. Think Luby's Restaurant in Texas vs Golden Market in Virginia.

    Passing such a bill will NOT legalize crack heads to carry - there are already laws on the books to cover that. We all know that only honest people obey laws anyhow - the BG will ignore the law.

    I don't know Wooly from Adam, but my grand kids wouldn't buy what he is sellin' - they're too smart for that.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Great meeting. Glad to see you guys.

    I almost fell out of my chair laughing at the cop who did most of the speaking. Early on he said he wanted cop-armed citizen encounters to not be adversarial. Then later, during scenario role-playing with Philip Van Cleave, totally contradicted himself by saying he was checking to see if Philip was drunk and (insert two or three other characteristics here). Not adversarial? Suuuuuure. What a buncha double-speak. They want us to be un-adversarial is what they mean, to not know they are in fact being entirely adversarial. The old wisdom applies: The cop is not your friend. He is looking for a violation.
    Will there be free video so all can watch, or was it PPV?

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Will there be free video so all can watch
    Yep. In process.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Wish I could have made it

    However, I have a very good excuse. I was busy at the hospital with my wife, as they moved our new son out of the NICU. He gets to come home tomorrow.

    I am looking forward to the video, because I really wanted to see the presentation.

    Perhaps next time, I'll be able to bring the wife and little one along as well.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

  22. #22
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Great meeting. Glad to see you guys.

    The uber-statist candidate for Loudoun sheriff was a joke. I was definitely unimpressed. He just confessed to being part of a vast sucking sound near my tax money and the national debt. Bet he just loves no-knock warrants.

    The first speaker was a little better. At least he informed us on the state of our rights regarding defensive lethal force, rather than spend most of his time telling us how great he was. I would have liked to hear what he meant exactly when he said he supported 2A. We're a saavy crowd. We wanna hear the particulars; we know how politicians say they support 2A, but then say 2A only means guns for the National Guard.
    ...
    And that first guy was dead wrong about most of his legal pronouncements. Neither said anything about having any experience in running a jail, providing courthouse security, or service of civil warrants and process.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Btw, I was a bit consternated about the failure to answer a few questions that had been rephrased and restated several times:

    1) Why should a dispatcher be trained to tell an officer to investigate a simple "man with a gun" call at all? As Ed pointed out, that's functionally identical to "man with red shirt", though I was thinking, "man with a tree in his yard". Unless the call says something to indicate that the "man" (sexist bastards) is doing something threatening or dangerous with a gun, where's the need for a cop? No answer. The PFC said that he is required to investigate anything the dispatcher calls him on. Suppose he gets a call complaining that someone is carrying an open bottle of soda-pop down the street? No answer.

    2) Why would the police demand to see a CHP when a person is openly carrying? No answer.

    3) What if the person approached by the cop fails to say anything, ignores the cop, and just keeps walking? No answer.

    I, myself, was a bit perturbed by the Lt., Gun Lee, who was clearly engaged in a P.R. mission. When someone asked about the requirement for self-identification, he gave an answer that was dead wrong. When I corrected him, he said that if I asked him after the "show", he'd research it and get back to me. Of course, I've already researched the issue, and I've got a stack of paper containing my notes, excerpts, and case authority, which I offered to give him. I gave him my card with an email address, but he pretty much blew me off in what I regarded as an extremely patronizing manner. It must be because I wasn't "in uniform". Btw, I'll "pdf" that stack of paper and put a link to it on my website in the next couple of days.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Btw, I was a bit consternated about the failure to answer a few questions that had been rephrased and restated several times:

    1) Why should a dispatcher be trained to tell an officer to investigate a simple "man with a gun" call at all? As Ed pointed out, that's functionally identical to "man with red shirt", though I was thinking, "man with a tree in his yard". Unless the call says something to indicate that the "man" (sexist bastards) is doing something threatening or dangerous with a gun, where's the need for a cop? No answer. The PFC said that he is required to investigate anything the dispatcher calls him on. Suppose he gets a call complaining that someone is carrying an open bottle of soda-pop down the street? No answer.

    2) Why would the police demand to see a CHP when a person is openly carrying? No answer.

    3) What if the person approached by the cop fails to say anything, ignores the cop, and just keeps walking? No answer.

    I, myself, was a bit perturbed by the Lt., Gun Lee, who was clearly engaged in a P.R. mission. When someone asked about the requirement for self-identification, he gave an answer that was dead wrong. When I corrected him, he said that if I asked him after the "show", he'd research it and get back to me. Of course, I've already researched the issue, and I've got a stack of paper containing my notes, excerpts, and case authority, which I offered to give him. I gave him my card with an email address, but he pretty much blew me off in what I regarded as an extremely patronizing manner. It must be because I wasn't "in uniform". Btw, I'll "pdf" that stack of paper and put a link to it on my website in the next couple of days.
    They did answer #1. They said if they receive a call about a man walking down the street with an open soda bottle.. they will dispatch. or wearing a red shirt.. dispatch. They say it is not (in FxCo) the responsibility of dispatcher to decide.. they are to gather as much info as possible and dispatch.

    2. no answer.

    3. They did answer. They said if I were to continue walking and not say a word that would do nothing but observe... this then branched out into the ability to record and video police.

    Ed
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  25. #25
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    I'll be able to bring the wife and little one along as well.
    Congrats on the new addition to your family, glad to hear they are doing okay.
    As a parent that as been through a similar situation recently the prayers of me and mine are with you and yours.


    BOT:

    I look forward to the video..

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