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Thread: SB 5418 use of force bill

  1. #1
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    SB 5418 use of force bill

    Anyone read this bill yet? It would increase our ability to use of deadly force and keep anyone who acts lawfully in the use immune from criminal and civil liability. It also would add a no retreat subsection and would extend to our vehicles.

    http://dlr.leg.wa.gov/billsummary/de...5418&year=2011
    Last edited by joeroket; 01-27-2011 at 05:58 PM.
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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    Anyone read this bill yet? It would increase our ability to use of deadly force and keep anyone who acts lawfully in the use immune from criminal and civil liability. It also would add a no retreat subsection and would extend to our vehicles.

    http://dlr.leg.wa.gov/billsummary/de...5418&year=2011
    (2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has
    12 committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer
    13 competent to receive him or her into custody;

    Why is it class of felony is not specified, I'd hate to see a paper hanger, or first time car prowler shot for running away.

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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    Anyone read this bill yet? It would increase our ability to use of deadly force and keep anyone who acts lawfully in the use immune from criminal and civil liability. It also would add a no retreat subsection and would extend to our vehicles.

    http://dlr.leg.wa.gov/billsummary/de...5418&year=2011

    Important to remember it references "OCCUPIED vehicles".
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    (2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has
    12 committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer
    13 competent to receive him or her into custody;

    Why is it class of felony is not specified, I'd hate to see a paper hanger, or first time car prowler shot for running away.
    Wouldn't this "event" take them out of the "first timer" category? Besides, in WA, "first timers" in the offenses you cited are all too often plead down to misdemeanors or deferred prosecution.
    Last edited by amlevin; 01-27-2011 at 06:42 PM.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Oh Oh, some here will not like this, if you are doing something illegal as in possession of marijuana you loose your right to use deadly force.

    (2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) of this section
    does not apply if:
    (c) The person who uses deadly force is engaged in an unlawful
    activity or is using the dwelling, residence, other place of abode, or
    vehicle to further an unlawful activity;
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    Anyone read this bill yet? It would increase our ability to use of deadly force and keep anyone who acts lawfully in the use immune from criminal and civil liability. It also would add a no retreat subsection and would extend to our vehicles.

    http://dlr.leg.wa.gov/billsummary/de...5418&year=2011
    Actually we already have a no retreat that covers anywhere we have a legal right to be, this includes our vehicles.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Oh Oh, some here will not like this, if you are doing something illegal as in possession of marijuana you loose your right to use deadly force.
    So...no toking the reefer right before I defend myself....check.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    So...no toking the reefer right before I defend myself....check.
    Yeah you could say the only thing that should be smoking is your gun barrel.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Yeah you could say the only thing that should be smoking is your gun barrel.
    I really don't think the device you use to smoke marijuana with makes any difference on its legality, but hey, each to their own....

    Mmm...hint of CLP on the tongue.
    Last edited by FMCDH; 01-27-2011 at 10:12 PM.

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Oh Oh, some here will not like this, if you are doing something illegal as in possession of marijuana you loose your right to use deadly force.

    'you're going to jail'
    but it was self defense, he tried to carjack me!
    'You're parked in a fire zone!'
    #(%&#%(

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Actually we already have a no retreat that covers anywhere we have a legal right to be, this includes our vehicles.
    Yes I know but at least it will be written in statute.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    'you're going to jail'
    but it was self defense, he tried to carjack me!
    'You're parked in a fire zone!'
    #(%&#%(
    That's what I did!
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    (2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has

    12 committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer
    13 competent to receive him or her into custody;

    Why is it class of felony is not specified, I'd hate to see a paper hanger, or first time car prowler shot for running away.

    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Wouldn't this "event" take them out of the "first timer" category? Besides, in WA, "first timers" in the offenses you cited are all too often plead down to misdemeanors or deferred prosecution.
    Perhaps I'm misreading the written intent, but I was looking at it from any felon regardless of class of felony still has to make it safely to "public officer
    competent to receive him or her into custody" before as you mentioned the court system lessening the charge.
    There are plenty of those in society living by I'd kick there ass, or put a round in them before they got away, hell, hear that on this forum. So will this wording make those types of.... think they have a license to kick ass, or kill?
    Or I'm way off on this?


  14. #14
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    Perhaps I'm misreading the written intent, but I was looking at it from any felon regardless of class of felony still has to make it safely to "public officer
    competent to receive him or her into custody" before as you mentioned the court system lessening the charge.
    There are plenty of those in society living by I'd kick there ass, or put a round in them before they got away, hell, hear that on this forum. So will this wording make those types of.... think they have a license to kick ass, or kill?
    Or I'm way off on this?
    Actually, the idea of shooting a fleeing felon was an established part of Common Law up until 1985 and "Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule

    In Common law, the Fleeing Felon Rule permits the use of force, including deadly force, against an individual who is suspected of a felony and is in clear flight. Force may be used by the victim, bystanders, or police officers. In some jurisprudence failure to use such force was a misdemeanor which could result in a fine or imprisonment. According to David Caplan "Immediate stopping of the fleeing felon, whether actually or presumably dangerous, was deemed absolutely necessary for the security of the people in a free state, and for maintaining the "public security." ... " Indeed, it has been said that the social policy of the common law in this matter was not only to threaten dangerous felons and hence deter them, but was also to induce them to "surrender peaceably" if they dared commit inherently dangerous felonies, rather than allow them to "escape trial for their crimes
    This was around long before John Wayne.

    As for the "Class of Felony" argument, it brings to mind an old story.

    This guy was drinking in a bar and asked the woman next to him if she'd sleep with him for $10,000. She said "why sure". He sipped his drink and then asked her if she'd sleep with him for $100. She responded "what do you think I am, a Prostitute?" He then said, "we know what you are, we're merely negotiating the price".

    Likewise with Felons. The "Class of Felony" merely determines the "price" they have to pay for their deeds.
    Last edited by amlevin; 01-28-2011 at 01:52 PM.
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    This is a "Stand Your Ground" bill, what the newspapers would generically call a "Castle Doctrine" bill.

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    Satire here

    Oh, my goodness, there will be blood in the streets, people will shoot at each other over parking spots, cats and dogs will be living together, macaroni and cheese will stop hanging out together and the world as we know it will end....

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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    I really don't think the device you use to smoke marijuana with makes any difference on its legality, but hey, each to their own....
    Makes me wonder how many here know where the term "shotgun" as it refers to smoking dope came from. Hint: It was in 'nam....

  18. #18
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Is this bill even legal under the SCOTUS ruling of Tennessee v. Garner.
    Last edited by jbone; 02-07-2011 at 12:46 PM. Reason: spelling

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