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Thread: 2011 DeLeon Ammunition Bill introduced

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    Regular Member puppy8agun's Avatar
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    2011 DeLeon Ammunition Bill introduced

    Looks like California State Senator Kevin DeLeon was not sufficiently embarrassed when his ammo registration bill, AB 962, was struck down as unconstitutional in federal court. Clearly not having learned his lesson, he is now getting into a ******* match by introducing another ammo ban bill in SB 124. These anti-gunners in California just don't get it.

    http://leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/bill...ntroduced.html

    INTRODUCED BY Senator De León

    JANUARY 26, 2011

    An act to amend Sections 189, 12022.2, 16650, 16660, 30315, 30320,
    and 30325 of the Penal Code, relating to ammunition.


    LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL'S DIGEST


    SB 124, as introduced, De León. Ammunition.
    Existing law, as amended by Proposition 115, adopted by the voters
    at the November 7, 1990, statewide general election provides that
    all murder which is perpetrated, among other means, by knowing use of
    ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, is murder
    in the first degree. Proposition 115 may be amended by a bill passed
    by majority vote of the Legislature if that bill becomes operative
    upon approval of the voters.
    This bill would delete the word "primarily" and recast that
    provision to provide that all murder which is perpetuated by knowing
    use of ammunition designed to penetrate metal or armor is murder in
    the first degree. The bill would also provide that this provision is
    operative if approval by the voters and directs the Secretary of
    State to place this provision on the ballot of the next statewide
    election.
    Existing law provides that any person who, while armed with a
    firearm in the commission or attempted commission of any felony, has
    in his or her immediate possession ammunition for the firearm
    designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, shall upon conviction
    of that felony or attempted felony, in addition and consecutive to
    the punishment prescribed for the felony or attempted felony, be
    punished by an additional term of 3, 4, or 10 years.
    This bill would delete the word "primarily" and recast the above
    crime to be based on the immediate possession of ammunition for the
    firearm designed to penetrate metal or armor. The bill would further
    omit reference to ammunition primary designed for use in a rifle and
    instead define "handgun ammunition designed to penetrate metal or
    armor" to mean ammunition, except a shotgun shell, capable of
    penetrating a body vest or body shield when discharged from a
    handgun.
    Existing law defines "handgun ammunition" to mean ammunition
    principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable
    of being concealed upon the person, notwithstanding that the
    ammunition may also be used in some rifles. Other provisions of
    existing law regulate the sale, transfer, delivery, and possession of
    handgun ammunition, and violations of certain of those provisions
    are crimes.
    This bill would delete the phrase "principally" from that
    definition, and recast the definition of handgun ammunition to mean
    ammunition for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable
    of being concealed upon the person, notwithstanding that the
    ammunition may also be used in some rifles.
    Existing law provides that "handgun ammunition designed primarily
    to penetrate metal or armor" means any ammunition, except a shotgun
    shell or ammunition primarily designed for use in a rifle, that is
    designed primarily to penetrate a body vest or body shield, and has
    either of 2 characteristics, one of which is that it is primarily
    manufactured or designed, by virtue of its shape, cross-sectional
    density, or any coating applied thereto, including, but not limited
    to, ammunition commonly known as "KTW ammunition," to breach or
    penetrate a body vest or body shield when fired from a pistol,
    revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
    person.
    This bill would delete the word "primarily" and recast the above
    phrase to read "handgun ammunition designed to penetrate metal or
    armor."
    Existing law provides that any person, firm, or corporation who,
    within this state, knowingly possesses any handgun ammunition
    designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor is guilty of a public
    offense, with specified penalties.
    This bill would delete the word "primarily" from those provisions
    and recast those provisions to be based on knowingly possessing
    handgun ammunition designed to penetrate metal or armor.
    Existing law provides that any person, firm, or corporation who,
    within this state, manufactures, imports, sells, offers to sell, or
    knowingly transports any handgun ammunition designed primarily to
    penetrate metal or armor is guilty of a felony and upon conviction
    thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in state prison, or by a
    fine not to exceed $5,000, or by both that fine and imprisonment.
    This bill would delete the word "primarily" from those provisions
    and recast those provisions to be based on handgun ammunition
    designed to penetrate metal or armor.
    Existing law authorizes the possession of handgun ammunition
    designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor by a person who found
    the ammunition, if that person is not otherwise prohibited from
    possessing firearms or ammunition, and the person is transporting the
    ammunition to law enforcement for disposition.
    This bill would delete the word "primarily" from those provisions
    and recast those provisions to read handgun ammunition designed to
    penetrate metal or armor.
    By expanding the definition of "handgun ammunition" and the
    definition of "handgun ammunition designed to penetrate metal or
    armor," this bill would expand the scope of certain crimes relating
    to the sale, transfer, delivery, and possession of handgun
    ammunition, and thereby impose a state-mandated local program.
    The California Constitution requires the state to reimburse local
    agencies and school districts for certain costs mandated by the
    state. Statutory provisions establish procedures for making that
    reimbursement.
    This bill would provide that no reimbursement is required by this
    act for a specified reason.
    Vote: majority. Appropriation: no. Fiscal committee: yes.
    State-mandated local program: yes.


    THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:

    SECTION 1. Section 189 of the Penal Code, as amended by Section 51
    of Chapter 178 of the Statutes of 2010, is amended to read:
    189. (a) All murder which is perpetrated by
    means of a destructive device or explosive, a weapon of mass
    destruction, knowing use of ammunition designed primarily
    to penetrate metal or armor, poison, lying in wait,
    torture, or by any other kind of willful, deliberate, and
    premeditated killing, or which is committed in the perpetration of,
    or attempt to perpetrate, arson, rape, carjacking, robbery, burglary,
    mayhem, kidnapping, train wrecking, or any act punishable under
    Section 206, 286, 288, 288a, or 289, or any murder which is
    perpetrated by means of discharging a firearm from a motor vehicle,
    intentionally at another person outside of the vehicle with the
    intent to inflict death, is murder of the first degree. All other
    kinds of murders are of the second degree.
    As
    (b) As used in this section,
    "destructive device" means any destructive device as defined in
    Section 16460, and "explosive" means any explosive as defined in
    Section 12000 of the Health and Safety Code.
    As
    (c) As used in this section,
    "weapon of mass destruction" means any item defined in Section 11417.

    To
    (d) To prove the killing was
    "deliberate and premeditated," it shall not be necessary to prove the
    defendant maturely and meaningfully reflected upon the gravity of
    his or her act.
    SEC. 2. Section 12022.2 of the Penal Code, as amended by Section
    14 of Chapter 256 of the Statutes of 2010, is amended to read:
    12022.2. (a) Any person who, while armed with a firearm in the
    commission or attempted commission of any felony, has in his or her
    immediate possession ammunition for the firearm designed
    primarily to penetrate metal or armor, shall upon
    conviction of that felony or attempted felony, in addition and
    consecutive to the punishment prescribed for the felony or attempted
    felony, be punished by an additional term of three, four, or 10
    years. The court shall order the middle term unless there are
    circumstances in aggravation or mitigation. The court shall state the
    reasons for its enhancement choice on the record at the time of the
    sentence.
    (b) Any person who wears a body vest in the commission or
    attempted commission of a violent offense, as defined in subdivision
    (b) of Section 12021.1, shall, upon conviction of that felony or
    attempted felony, in addition and consecutive to the punishment
    prescribed for the felony or attempted felony of which he or she has
    been convicted, be punished by an additional term of one, two, or
    five years. The court shall order the middle term unless there are
    circumstances in aggravation or mitigation. The court shall state the
    reasons for its enhancement choice on the record at the time of the
    sentence.
    (c) As used in this section, "body vest" means any
    bullet-resistant material intended to provide ballistic and trauma
    protection for the wearer.
    (d) This section shall become operative on January 1, 2012.
    SEC. 3. Section 16650 of the Penal Code is amended to read:
    16650. (a) As used in this part, "handgun ammunition" means
    ammunition principally for use in pistols,
    revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
    person, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some
    rifles.
    (b) As used in Section 30312 and in Article 3 (commencing with
    Section 30345) of Chapter 1 of Division 10 of Title 4, "handgun
    ammunition" does not include either of the following:
    (1) Ammunition designed and intended to be used in an antique
    firearm.
    (2) Blanks.
    SEC. 4. Section 16660 of the Penal Code is amended to read:
    16660. As used in this part, "handgun ammunition designed
    primarily to penetrate metal or armor" means any
    ammunition, except a shotgun shell or ammunition primarily
    designed for use in a rifle , that is designed
    primarily to penetrate capable of penetrating a
    body vest or body shield when discharged from a handgun ,
    and has either of the following characteristics:
    (a) Has projectile or projectile core constructed entirely,
    excluding the presence of traces of other substances, from one or a
    combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, beryllium copper,
    or depleted uranium, or any equivalent material of similar density
    or hardness.
    (b) Is primarily manufactured or designed, by
    virtue of its shape, cross-sectional density, or any coating applied
    thereto, including, but not limited to, ammunition commonly known as
    "KTW ammunition," to breach or penetrate a body vest or body shield
    when fired from a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
    concealed upon the person.
    SEC. 5. Section 30315 of the Penal Code is amended to read:
    30315. Any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state
    knowingly possesses any handgun ammunition designed primarily
    to penetrate metal or armor is guilty of a public offense
    and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the
    state prison, or in the county jail for a term not to exceed one
    year, or by a fine not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000), or
    by both that fine and imprisonment.
    (more)

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    Regular Member puppy8agun's Avatar
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    page 2

    SEC. 6. Section 30320 of the Penal Code is amended to read:
    30320. Any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state,
    manufactures, imports, sells, offers to sell, or knowingly transports
    any handgun ammunition designed primarily to
    penetrate metal or armor is guilty of a felony and upon conviction
    thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in state prison, or by a
    fine not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by both that
    fine and imprisonment.
    SEC. 7. Section 30325 of the Penal Code is amended to read:
    30325. Nothing in this article shall apply to or affect the
    possession of handgun ammunition designed primarily
    to penetrate metal or armor by a person who found the
    ammunition, if that person is not prohibited from possessing firearms
    or ammunition pursuant to subdivision (a) of Section 30305, Chapter
    2 (commencing with Section 29800) or Chapter 3 (commencing with
    Section 29900) of Division 9 of this title, or Section 8100 or 8103
    of the Welfare and Institutions Code, and the person is transporting
    the ammunition to a law enforcement agency for disposition according
    to law.
    SEC. 8. Section 1 of this act shall only become operative if
    submitted to and adopted by the electors. The Secretary of State
    shall place Section 1 of this act on the ballot of the next statewide
    election.
    SEC. 9. No reimbursement is required by this act pursuant to
    Section 6 of Article XIII B of the California Constitution because
    the only costs that may be incurred by a local agency or school
    district will be incurred because this act creates a new crime or
    infraction, eliminates a crime or infraction, or changes the penalty
    for a crime or infraction, within the meaning of Section 17556 of the
    Government Code, or changes the definition of a crime within the
    meaning of Section 6 of Article XIII B of the California
    Constitution.

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    If I read this correctly, it deals with AP rounds used in handguns, aka cop killers.
    According to what I read about them, they are 20% more effective in penatrating a vest. They were originally made for LEO's for penetrating car bodys.
    Certainly not the round of choice for stopping a bad guy. The don't transfer as much kenetic enegery as a non AP round. Give me a good ol hollow point any day.
    What is the round of choice used by LEO's?
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Not sure where you heard that but...

    ... 'automotive steel' I.E. a car door, is not going to present a serious barrier even to 'non-AP' handgun rounds that are useful in self-defence. Contrary to a lot of films and TV shows, the last thing you want to 'take cover' behind is a card door, since you'll get neither concealment nor actual ('hard') cover.

    Anyway, I read it the same way; seems to be an effort to stiffen penalties for the use and possession of armour-piercing handgun ammunition. I think this is probably silly (no handgun ammunition will penetrate IIA or III body armour, other than Magnum rounds, which can penetrate IIA with the right projectile but not III). It sounds like a hangover from 1980s hysteria and film-lore, to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidheal View Post
    ... 'automotive steel' I.E. a car door, is not going to present a serious barrier even to 'non-AP' handgun rounds that are useful in self-defence. Contrary to a lot of films and TV shows, the last thing you want to 'take cover' behind is a card door, since you'll get neither concealment nor actual ('hard') cover.

    Anyway, I read it the same way; seems to be an effort to stiffen penalties for the use and possession of armour-piercing handgun ammunition. I think this is probably silly (no handgun ammunition will penetrate IIA or III body armour, other than Magnum rounds, which can penetrate IIA with the right projectile but not III). It sounds like a hangover from 1980s hysteria and film-lore, to me.
    Incorrect. 7.62x25 Tokarev will cut through IIA if not IIIA. 5.7x28 will more than likely cut through IIA. If loaded correctly, I am certain that a .44mag could cut through a level III vest.

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    Sorry but...

    ... actual ballistics studies just don't bear you out. I wasn't guessing at this, I speak from knowledge and with access to hard figures (although I cannot publish those I was privy to, for various reasons, the good old internet has several similar studies, as late as the 90s).

    To answer you specifically:

    7.62 Tokarev will not penetrate current IIA.

    Standard bullets in a .44 Magnum will not penetrate IIA, specialist rounds designed for AP purposes will penetrate (however, these are bespoke projectiles that you will never see) IIA but not III.

    5.7x28 mm is a primarily military calibre and it's not really pistol ammunition although there are pistols chambered for it. I'd forgotten that they are available to civilians in the USA, however: MILITARY cartidge variants defeat IIA at close range from a pistol but the civilian cartridges will not.

    For your edification, it might interest you to know that you typically deliver a punch with more energy than any handgun round in the world. Anyone who learnt to kick properly (trained self defence) delivers far more.

    P.S. I have not mentioned type II (as opposed to type IIA) because the data I have don't relate specifically to it, however anything that failed to penetrate IIA obviously won't penetrate II and a lot of rounds that totally fail against III wouldn't defeat IIIA either.
    Last edited by Gaidheal; 01-28-2011 at 10:46 AM. Reason: Added the P.S.

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    Without needing to dig up a ballistic survey;

    http://http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/body-armor1.htm

    Especially note:

    "Type III-A (High Velocity 9mm; .44 Magnum). This armor protects against ... and .44 Magnum jacketed hollow point (JHP) bullets, with nominal masses of 15.6 g (240 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 427 m/s (1400 ft/s) or less."

    In other words, even IIIA will stop many .44 Magnum rounds, conceivably you can defeat IIIA, I'd speculate, with other loads but you will not defeat III.

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    [QUOTE=puppy8agun;1454907]Looks like California State Senator Kevin DeLeon was not sufficiently embarrassed when his ammo registration bill, AB 962, was struck down as unconstitutional in federal court. Clearly not having learned his lesson, he is now getting into a ******* match by introducing another ammo ban bill in SB 124. These anti-gunners in California just don't get it.

    http://leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/bill...ntroduced.html

    It is exactly because he was embarrassed by the court that he is doing this to "redeem" himself and show us evil gun owners that he is right.

    And a good strategy too. Start with "cop killer" ammo. Once that is done, why not follow it with +P+ ammo, surely we need registration for those, I mean, why would civilians have a need for those ammo. Then on and on and on...

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    Sorry mate, just not true and I'm afraid that people talking in an internet forum thread rates pretty low, in terms of evidence. Regardless, I have actual data.

    I note, though, that in most cases they're talking about older vests (as in worn), furthermore earlier types of IIA were defeated by that round, which is why I said current IIA. It doesn't defeat III, or IIIA however, at all, no matter what enthusiasts might claim. 5.7 mm is an interesting round, too, but outside the military, it won't defeat IIA and above either. Remember that these are more than simply heavy clothes or soft, easily worn body armour; they're the kind of thing used by LEOs and at the higher types, serving military personnel, in theatre.

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