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DeRoche-case-tossed-out-of-court

springerdave

Regular Member
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
665
Location
Northern lower & Keweenaw area, Michigan, USA
My $.02

I think people sometimes tend to make statements based on their own self evaluation, such as... I don't think people should carry while drinking because if I was drinking and had a gun I would probably/might (insert your own self evaluation here) go around shooting indiscriminately...
They think that they would lack self control, so they would rather restrict others first than to allow them the benefit of being innocent until proven guilty.springerdave.
 
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Bikenut

Guest
I think people sometimes tend to make statements based on their own self evaluation, such as... I don't think people should carry while drinking because if I was drinking and had a gun I would probably/might (insert your own self evaluation here) go around shooting indiscriminately...
They think that they would lack self control, so they would rather restrict others first than to allow them the benefit of being innocent until proven guilty.springerdave.

Based on what I've seen throughout my life I have formed the opinion that what you just said is the basis for every argument for the restriction... actually it is control.... of rights and freedom ever presented.

Those who do not have control of themselves, who fear they are unable to control themselves, in a desperate attempt to feel "safe", try to force control onto everyone else because, in their arrogance, they think everyone else is equally as unable to control themselves as they are.

Enacting a law restricting the carrying of guns in a certain physical place, a building, event, or under certain circumstances, to control those who have a right to carry guns is a pathetic, self delusional, and ineffective, attempt to be safe. Such laws only offer the self deluded a "feeling" of safety.... not the reality of any safety.
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
Exactly. Unfortunately, we now have a .gov that does exactly the opposite of what it should. What good would the AWB do to prevent another shooting? Making my daughters semiautomatic Ruger 10-22 illegal, (assault rifle), because some jerkoff shot innocent people in Arizona is completely assinine, but that is what the .gov wants to do.
 

choover

Regular Member
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
287
Location
Belleville , michigan, ,
I think people sometimes tend to make statements based on their own self evaluation, such as... I don't think people should carry while drinking because if I was drinking and had a gun I would probably/might (insert your own self evaluation here) go around shooting indiscriminately...
They think that they would lack self control, so they would rather restrict others first than to allow them the benefit of being innocent until proven guilty.springerdave.


Well thats a nice try to dis credit someone because they feel differently than you do, but it is also a feeble attempt by someone who lacks anything intelligent to add it would appear.

I feel that having a gun while intoxicated is a horrible idea because of how I have seen others act, key word there is others. I personally have never been intoxicated and the amount of alcohol I have consumed in my life ( I'm 30 ) would all fit in one beer can. Am I against drinking? Nope, not at all, I just never had liked the taste of it at all.
 

choover

Regular Member
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
287
Location
Belleville , michigan, ,
Yeah! Because once a person has a few beers, they deserve to be shot and killed without the benefit of defending themselves!

Everyone knows self-defense is only for sober folks! Don't the drunks know they're just supposed to roll over and die when assaulted or robbed?

They should make driving a car after drinking illegal, as well!

Once again, even within our own ranks, we encounter a person that actually believes human behavior can be altered by writing a sentence beginning with "Section A, subsection IIV, sub-paragraph B, ordinance 234.76-1", or the equivalent, into some dusty lawbook on some forgotten shelf in some city hall.


Actually we are not just talking about a few beers which can mean different things for different people, we are talking about people in public intoxicated and with guns.

And who said anyone deserved to get shot and killed, a giant leap much?

in·tox·i·cate (n-tks-kt)
v. in·tox·i·cat·ed, in·tox·i·cat·ing, in·tox·i·cates
v.tr.
1. To stupefy or excite by the action of a chemical substance such as alcohol.
2. To stimulate or excite: "a man whom life intoxicates, who has no need of wine" (Anaïs Nin).
3. To poison.
v.intr.
To cause stupefaction, stimulation, or excitement by or as if by use of a chemical substance
 

TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
Under current law, "intoxicated" means .02 or .08 (it depends).

Ever sniffed mouth wash then carried a gun?
 

choover

Regular Member
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
287
Location
Belleville , michigan, ,
why? is there any logical reason to deny someone the right to self defense? in states other than michigan, the thought of denying someone's 2A for such a petty reason is ridiculous. indiana for instance. they allow carry while intoxicated, and to my knowledge, indiana is not a bloodbath of impaired shootings.

and let me correct you, you are not "all about the 2A". can't be while making that sort of statement.

Sure I can be all about the 2A. Do you really feel that someone cannot be all about the 2A because they feel there should be reasonable restriction? In my attempts to further 2A rights I do my part to try to make sure that the restriction is reasonable and not over reaching. Claiming what I am or am not based on one post is beyond ignorant.

Lets change the scenerio, what about someone tripping on LSD? Should they be armed, to deny them would be a infringement, no?

What about a patient in a mental ward who believes the devil lives in everyone and he needs to kill him, give him a uzi? To not allow him to be armed would be a restriction , no?

What about 6 year olds in school? Should they be armed, to deny it would be a restriction, no?

What about the guy that walked into the police station shooting? Had he lived and been taken into custody should they have let him keep his firearm? Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law and to disarm him would be to deny him his 2A, no?

While these seem far fetched they are real reasons that there are restrictions and that there need to be. Someone having a beer may be ok but what about the people that say they only intended to have a few and next thing they know they woke up on their couch and dont even remember driving home?

I believe law abiding citizens should be able to carry in all places and at all times unless they are impared in some way. Do you really think drunks need guns while they are not in their correct mind state? I have pushed more people to get into guns as a recreational activity and have convinced well over a dozen people to get a cpl, I do my part to promote 2A, but that will certainly not be by promoting intoxicated people to be armed. You wanna get drunk with your gun, cool, stay home and do it.
 

choover

Regular Member
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
287
Location
Belleville , michigan, ,
Under current law, "intoxicated" means .02 or .08 (it depends).

Ever sniffed mouth wash then carried a gun?

I am absolutely not even going to justify that with a answer, we are obviously talking about people drinking. And mouthwash will not give you a .08 unless your swallowing it.
 

choover

Regular Member
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
287
Location
Belleville , michigan, ,
Bouncing off your post Choover......

Is the concept that folks who have indulged in alcohol should not be "allowed" to carry a gun what would be considered a "reasonable restriction to the 2nd Amendment"?

It is my belief (opinion if you will) that once the concept that a restriction is reasonable and seems to make logical sense invades (yes, invades) a person's perception of what a right is the slide down the slippery slope has begun where all that is necessary to restrict a right is to show how reasonable and logical that restriction seems to be. But if a person looks carefully at what a right really is then it is obvious that no restriction is reasonable... no amount of false logic or agenda promoting clever argument can justify restricting what is, by it's very nature, inviolate and unrestrictable.


It is absolutely restrictable, what makes you think owning a gun is not? Everything in this world is restrictable, even living and breathing considering that a jury of your peers can have the right to breath taken away from you. The reality is it needs to be restrictable, there has to be some restriction in place with it, the fight I think we have before us is keeping that restriction reasonable from those who want to over restrict it.

The bottom line is that the framers set the framework for current law, but the meaning of it will always change and it needs to. The Constitution being written when it was has to adapt to current life, and what it is now and how it is molded in courts will continue to change forever. Do you think current laws and the Constitution as written will have the same bearing in 500 years from now? No, it has to change to the times and remain the framework for our government and adapt to current times through the court system and through us as voters.
 

TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
choover: you probably believe people shouldn't be allowed to use cocaine, whether or not they are carrying or driving or just sitting in their house. Am I right?

I don't need to know the answer. I already do and don't really care that much...


Neo-cons...
 
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Bikenut

Guest
It is absolutely restrictable, what makes you think owning a gun is not?

Because a "right".. any and all "rights".... is/are, by it's very nature, unrestrictable.... anything that is restrictable isn't a right but is a "privilege". And owning a gun is a "right" ... not a "privilege".

Everything in this world is restrictable, even living and breathing considering that a jury of your peers can have the right to breath taken away from you. The reality is it needs to be restrictable, there has to be some restriction in place with it, the fight I think we have before us is keeping that restriction reasonable from those who want to over restrict it.

Those who understand that a "right" is something that a person owns and no one else can take it away know that a restriction, no matter what argument is used to justify it... or how logical that argument seems.... or how much sense that argument seems to make, is still nothing more than someone's attempt to control someone else.

And those who think that rights NEED to be restrictable are merely wanting others to behave in a manner they think is acceptable. Some people think folks who are drinking should not be "allowed" to carry a gun. The truth is that is just their opinion of how people should behave and their desire to have them behave the way they want them to.

Once people are either "allowed" or "not allowed" then a right becomes a privilege controlled by whoever is doing the "allowing".

And never forget that the definition of what is a "reasonable restriction" will change depending on who is in power. As can be seen from this discussion my definition of what is a "reasonable restriction" and others obviously differ.

The bottom line is that the framers set the framework for current law, but the meaning of it will always change and it needs to.

The bottom line is that a "right" is inviolate because if it isn't then it becomes a privilege that can be regulated, denied, and even eliminated at the whim of whomever happens to think it should be....by whomever decides that society has outgrown the concept of "rights" and only "privileges" that can be controlled are the way to go.

And if the meaning is up for grabs then it becomes easy to believe that whomever is in charge can change it to suit their whims at the time.

The Constitution being written when it was has to adapt to current life, and what it is now and how it is molded in courts will continue to change forever.

No.. the Constitution does not have to adapt to current life... current life has strayed from the principles contained in the Constitution. And those who think it should change and has to change and it is OK to change it actually want only one thing.... to have things changed into what they, in their arrogance, think is proper... to have everyone else do what they themselves think is proper... to force everyone else to do what they themselves think is proper... in short, to control everyone else by taking away the freedoms contained within the Constitution.

Do you think current laws and the Constitution as written will have the same bearing in 500 years from now?

Yes... the principles contained within the Constitution... the right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness... the freedom of speech, freedom of religion, right to keep and bear arms, to be safe from search and seizure without due process... and all the rest... will have the same bearing 500 years from now because the Constitution isn't about how we go about our daily lives... it is all about having the freedoms to go about our daily lives.

No, it has to change to the times and remain the framework for our government and adapt to current times through the court system and through us as voters.

Those who believe the Constitution and Bill of Rights has to "adapt" are using code words for........

"I want people to do what I want them to do and the only way is to change the Constitution and Bill of Rights to take away their freedoms so I can force them to do what I want them to do."

A "right" is freedom... a "privilege" is a denial of freedom and a means to control.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Prohibition would work better for everyone, I would trade alcohol for pot any day. Better for the user, better for society.

While pot is likely better for society than is alcohol, I would submit that history demonstrates that prohibition -- of any object or substance -- itself is the problem.
 

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
Well thats a nice try to dis credit someone because they feel differently than you do, but it is also a feeble attempt by someone who lacks anything intelligent to add it would appear.

I feel that having a gun while intoxicated is a horrible idea because of how I have seen others act, key word there is others. I personally have never been intoxicated and the amount of alcohol I have consumed in my life ( I'm 30 ) would all fit in one beer can. Am I against drinking? Nope, not at all, I just never had liked the taste of it at all.

have you ever seen someone gunned down in cold blood by someone who was intoxicated? i would imagine that more murders are committed by the sober than by the intoxicated.
because of how you have seen "others act" you are willing to take away the rights of everyone? that's a huge leap in logic and a slippery slope towards tyranny. who is going to define what actions warrant removal of rights? where do you draw the line? maybe we should take away the guns of everyone who has ever lost their temper or raised their voice.
 

SlowDog

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
424
Location
Redford, Michigan, USA
All I can say is >>>
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Notice it doesn't say "unless you feel like making REASONABLE restrictions"

NEED I SAY MORE??
 

choover

Regular Member
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
287
Location
Belleville , michigan, ,
Regardless of what word games you wanna play, or how you think it should be.. guess what it IS regulated, it IS restricted and has been for for a long time and will probably be forever. You guys are jumping on your soapboxes like I am trying to propose new gun legislation. I think the government is over reaching on a lot of things, patriot act..need I say more... ok I will.. Obamacare... But that does not change the fact that my personal feelings are being under the influence of drink or drugs and carrying a gun are not a good mix.

If you dont like it, oh well, deal. or.. do what theq does and try to throw jabs like you know me. A lot of you really need to grow up, a lot.

Like I said, my fight is to try to get the gun laws to where I think they are reasonable, we all may have a different view of what that is.. thats just life. I think every law abiding adult who is sane should be able to carry anywhere in any fashion they so choose...but for F**ks sake, now while they are drunk or stoned, cocaine was the drug mentioned here earlier I think..
 
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