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Thread: LAPD encounter

  1. #1
    Regular Member ccrews's Avatar
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    Thumbs up LAPD encounter

    Had a couple of young men throw a large can of soda/beer at my vehicle while I was in the drive thru at a fast food restaurant while open carrying. I stepped from my vehicle and proceeded to follow them on foot while ordering them to stop.

    After about 100' of slow calm pursuit the individual who threw the can turned as if to confront me. As he approached, he noticed I had a gun holstered at my side and then proceeded to repeatedly scream "he has a gun" & "go ahead and shoot me now". He had noticeably been drinking. I remained calm, kept my gun in its holster at all times, then informed him that "no one was going to get shot as long as I was not in fear for my life"; and that I was making a citizens arrest. He repeatedly said he was calling the cops but never did even at my request to do so.

    I then told his friend that he was a witness to the event, as we turned to walk back toward my car. The one who threw the can, turned a corner and ran out of sight. I did not attempt to chase him down as I suffer a herniated disc in my lower back and really had no chance at all of catching this young man. Additionally I did not feel it was necessary as I had the witness and was planning to call the police once I reached my car and my phone. We returned to the restaurant and I moved my car from the drive thru lane.

    He began to plead that I just let this go. He offered $100 first then, "all the money I have" as he pulled about $125 from his pants pocket. I saw $1 fall to the ground near my vehicle as he did this.

    I called the police and informed the dispatcher of the situation and that I was open carrying a holstered weapon. This took her by surprise and she thought I had the man at gunpoint. I informed her that my weapon was HOLSTERED and to please inform the responding officers. I was placed on hold while she did this. 2 squad cars pulled up and I took the liberty of putting my hands in plain sight before they asked.

    I was identified as the caller and was then asked to turn around with my back to the officers so they could check my weapon. Officer 1 asked why I was carrying a gun and I informed him that I was open carrying within the law as an exercise of my rights. He accepted this without further debate. They were professional and preformed an e-check on my gun while Officer 2 asked me about the events of the evening.

    I asked to have my firearm returned to me and they did. I did provide my ID since I had requested a report be made with regards to my vehicle. ID was not requested as part of the e-check.

    After the Officers had taken my statement, I along with Officer 3 walked around my vehicle and picked up the $1 that the 'witness' had dropped. I asked the officer to return it to the young man. He did so but I don't think he wanted to based on his tone of voice as he spoke with the 'witness'.

    Officer 4 questioned the 'witness' who took it upon himself to go to his knees and plead further with me just before the officers rolled up. He said, "I'm form an asian family who highly values education, if I'm arrested do you know what they will do to me? I have midterms Monday.". I informed him that he should make better choices in friends and that I was not interested in his money, and that his inebriated buddy was the one responsible and that I hoped he didn't drive in that condition.

    I signed and received a copy of the initial report (vehicle tampering) and the officers cards with the incident # on it. I then drove around the block and back to the fast food drive thru to place my order.

    Overall I was pleased with my interaction with the officers tonight, they were polite and professional I give them a thumbs up.
    Last edited by ccrews; 01-30-2011 at 06:28 AM.

  2. #2
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccrews View Post
    I stepped from my vehicle and proceeded to follow them on foot while ordering them to stop.
    Here is your first mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccrews View Post
    After about 100' of slow calm pursuit the individual who threw the can turned as if to confront me.
    And here is your second mistake.

    By exiting your vehicle and pursuing the can-chucker and attempting to apprehend them you appear to the police as a aggressor. I think your actions were ill-advised, and while the outcome appears to have been positive, this is in no way an indicator of how others should proceed under similar situtations. You did however, do the right thing by contacting the police and being a good witness, but I question the timing.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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  3. #3
    Regular Member usamarshal's Avatar
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    Sounds like you did everything right to me...nothing wrong with getting out of your car in my opinion...good job dave man!!

  4. #4
    Regular Member CORN BORN's Avatar
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    Condition 3...
    The holstered weapon is for your protection! To me this doesn't mean to lay down while your property is being damaged because you have a weapon. He didnt pull it and chase them waving and pointing STOP OR I'LL SHOOT! 2nd. If he didn't have a weapon for self defence would it be ok to then do what he did? ( both replys is our opinion ) I am also new to the OC and not saying your wrong just don't understand with or without a OC why that would change how you would proceed?

  5. #5
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    What C3 is talking about is the concept of bringing the fight to the suspect and is generally viewed poorly if a deadly weapon was employed during your encounter. Say you followed the guys and one pulled out a knife and ran at you and you had to shoot him, you could be charged with manslaughter/homicide/murder and the state would argue that you were looking for a fight or other such nonsense. In this scenario, everything turned out well, but it is something to consider. Being armed is not advantageous when it comes to the courtroom.

    Citizen's arrests also tend to be somewhat risky moves (or so I hear on the Internet). Arrested individuals sometimes sue for unlawful arrest or kidnapping or whatever. The police took the guy off your hands though, so it sounded like you were on the up and up.

    Having said all that, it sounds like everything turned out well. It would have been advantageous to bring the phone with you while in pursuit of the men and have dialed 911/non-emergency number right off the bat. I'm sure you have considered this after the fact as well. Another option would be to follow the men in your car while calling the police, although this could have been impossible in certain street layouts.

    Glad the LAPD didn't do anything other than the 12031(e) check. Glad you stayed safe. Glad the citizen's arrest went well. Carry on sir!

  6. #6
    Regular Member ccrews's Avatar
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    Mistakes...

    While I believe that no encounter goes without some mistakes or things that could be learned from and done better in the future.

    I appreciate some constructive criticism; but believe me I have already gone over this with myself more than a few times and have made some notes for myself.

    However, I do not feel that I should sacrifice my 5th Amendment rights just because I am exercising my 2nd, that flies in the face of what I believe and am attempting to accomplish by lawful open carry.

  7. #7
    Regular Member CORN BORN's Avatar
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    Bigtoe.
    I was also thinking about that phone call. From what I have seen the FIRST to call or contact the LEO or 911 is looked at in a better law abiding way. I was not implying that C3 was wrong in any way, as you can see this is my 5th post and still a newbie just looking to engage in conversations and bring up points to help myself and maybe some others with situations that can further the OC in CA. Thanks.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccrews View Post
    While I believe that no encounter goes without some mistakes or things that could be learned from and done better in the future.

    I appreciate some constructive criticism; but believe me I have already gone over this with myself more than a few times and have made some notes for myself.

    However, I do not feel that I should sacrifice my 5th Amendment rights just because I am exercising my 2nd, that flies in the face of what I believe and am attempting to accomplish by lawful open carry.
    What 5th Amendment rights are you talking about? Citizen's arrests are very tricky and I wouldn't attempt one unless for a felony. Of course, when we OC in free states, the guns are loaded, unlike the PDR. Say one of these clowns was carrying--and his was loaded, and he pulled it on you as you followed with a useless weapon holstered. What would you have had time to do before he opened fire? Anyway, I'm glad things worked out for you and agree the cops acted appropriately--for Kalifornia.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccrews View Post
    Had a couple of young men throw a large can of soda/beer at my vehicle while I was in the drive thru at a fast food restaurant while open carrying. I stepped from my vehicle and proceeded to follow them on foot while ordering them to stop.

    After about 100' of slow calm pursuit the individual who threw the can turned as if to confront me. As he approached, he noticed I had a gun holstered at my side and then proceeded to repeatedly scream "he has a gun" & "go ahead and shoot me now". He had noticeably been drinking. I remained calm, kept my gun in its holster at all times, then informed him that "no one was going to get shot as long as I was not in fear for my life"; and that I was making a citizens arrest. He repeatedly said he was calling the cops but never did even at my request to do so.

    I then told his friend that he was a witness to the event, as we turned to walk back toward my car. The one who threw the can, turned a corner and ran out of sight. I did not attempt to chase him down as I suffer a herniated disc in my lower back and really had no chance at all of catching this young man. Additionally I did not feel it was necessary as I had the witness and was planning to call the police once I reached my car and my phone. We returned to the restaurant and I moved my car from the drive thru lane.

    He began to plead that I just let this go. He offered $100 first then, "all the money I have" as he pulled about $125 from his pants pocket. I saw $1 fall to the ground near my vehicle as he did this.

    I called the police and informed the dispatcher of the situation and that I was open carrying a holstered weapon. This took her by surprise and she thought I had the man at gunpoint. I informed her that my weapon was HOLSTERED and to please inform the responding officers. I was placed on hold while she did this. 2 squad cars pulled up and I took the liberty of putting my hands in plain sight before they asked.

    I was identified as the caller and was then asked to turn around with my back to the officers so they could check my weapon. Officer 1 asked why I was carrying a gun and I informed him that I was open carrying within the law as an exercise of my rights. He accepted this without further debate. They were professional and preformed an e-check on my gun while Officer 2 asked me about the events of the evening.

    I asked to have my firearm returned to me and they did. I did provide my ID since I had requested a report be made with regards to my vehicle. ID was not requested as part of the e-check.

    After the Officers had taken my statement, I along with Officer 3 walked around my vehicle and picked up the $1 that the 'witness' had dropped. I asked the officer to return it to the young man. He did so but I don't think he wanted to based on his tone of voice as he spoke with the 'witness'.

    Officer 4 questioned the 'witness' who took it upon himself to go to his knees and plead further with me just before the officers rolled up. He said, "I'm form an asian family who highly values education, if I'm arrested do you know what they will do to me? I have midterms Monday.". I informed him that he should make better choices in friends and that I was not interested in his money, and that his inebriated buddy was the one responsible and that I hoped he didn't drive in that condition.

    I signed and received a copy of the initial report (vehicle tampering) and the officers cards with the incident # on it. I then drove around the block and back to the fast food drive thru to place my order.

    Overall I was pleased with my interaction with the officers tonight, they were polite and professional I give them a thumbs up.
    i have never had an echeck that does not involve a gun to my face. even LAPD is better than OCP

  10. #10
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    What C3 is talking about is the concept of bringing the fight to the suspect and is generally viewed poorly if a deadly weapon was employed during your encounter. Say you followed the guys and one pulled out a knife and ran at you and you had to shoot him, you could be charged with manslaughter/homicide/murder and the state would argue that you were looking for a fight or other such nonsense...
    ...Citizen's arrests also tend to be somewhat risky moves (or so I hear on the Internet). Arrested individuals sometimes sue for unlawful arrest or kidnapping or whatever.
    You keyed in on exactly what I was talking about.

    We need to consider just how we would be percieved by the jury if we are accused and charged with a crime. The prosecution is going to walk them through the scenario by asking questions that will build their case with your actions and words.

    Imagine you are have been sworn in and are on the stand;

    Prosecutor: You testified that on the night of January 29th 2010, that a drunken man threw something at your car while you were parked in the drive through line at the Jack in the Box, is that correct?

    You: Yes, a beer or soda can.

    Prosecutor: Did anyone see the man throw the can or see the can hit your car?

    You: His friend did.

    Prosecutor: And your first repsonse was to get out of your car with your gun and confront the man?

    You: No. My firearm was holstered.

    Prosecutor: Did this man make you angry?

    You: Yes, a little.

    Prosecutor: So you did intend to confront the man, who you allege threw the can at your car. And according to your testimony, once you were out of your car you continued to pursue this person up the street. When did you decide to call the police?

    You: After I returned to my car.

    Prosecutor: After the man saw your weapon, threatened to call the police and ran away fearing for his life?
    A jury is going to look at this from the perspective that the guy pissed you off and you were going to use the advantage of disparity of force to show him who was boss.

    Every question the prosecution asks would build on elements of a crime, whether that be for brandishing or assault with a deadly weapon, and that doesnt even get into the citizen's arrest, where the guy could pursue it as a civil matter. Unless this guy was commiting a felony, there is very little justification for pursuing him, particularly when he was already retreating from the scene. This would be a very different story if he were coming to you in your car...

    I hope you take this as constructive critism. I am glad your experience with the responding officers went so well, because there is a belief that LAPD would enjoy violating an armed citizen.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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  11. #11
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    hmm yea, i agree. the gun is to protect your life and doesn't grant you the right to play policemen. i would never pursue anyone for theft etc and would only unholster if i feel there is a threat to a life. when you pursue someone running away, you become the aggressor.

    this is the same as say: if a burglar broke into your home at night, you woke up and saw the guy and then he ran away from you. if you hurt him while he is fleeing, he can sue you.

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    citizen arrest and oc don't mix

    CCREWS, you need to seriously reevaluate what you are doing.

    Unless you are truly in fear of your life, a gun should not be part of any offensive arrest attempt for a minor crime.

    You attempting to chase down a bad guy, should be the opposite of what you need to be doing. You should be placing yourself out of harms way ,not walking towards it! Pursuing a Citizen's arrest for a BS thing like a beer can thrown at you car is outright poor judgment and planning. Playing cops and robbers should have stopped in grade school, or when you were making decisions about your lifelong profession.

    Ultimately pulling a gun on someone that started out as a vehicle tampering offense , will not look good in the LEO's eyes. What were you going to do if this drunk decides to turn and fight? shoot him? would his life be worth ending for a misdemeanor for a dent in your car? You said the guy was drunk. What are you going to do if he grabs your gun because he is not think straight after you cornered him?

    I am sorry to sound so harsh, but you have lost sight what OC should be all about. Protecting you and your family when LEO's can't. Nothing more. Property damage means nothing. They could break everything I owned and would not shoot anyone. Assault me personally with a deadly weapon, and plan on taking your last breath on this earth that day.

  13. #13
    Regular Member ccrews's Avatar
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    I fell the same as you all do with regard to the need to use a firearm, only if a life is endangered.

    While it seems that some of you would have sat in the car and let them throw stuff at you all day, I did not. I chose to make sure that the individuals involved came to justice. I would have done the same without a side arm and have done so in the past when someone broke into my car. They were arrested, I showed up at trial and was awarded restitution for the damages.

    For the record I never unholstered and OC just happened to be what I was doing at the time. I was not looking for trouble, I was looking for diner. I could not just follow them in the car and call the police on the phone because I was 'locked' in the drive thru loop by the curb. OC was only an issue to the individual who threw the can when he suffered a drunken panic, OC played no part in my actions at all.

    At what point do you step out of your car? In my case the can hit the car but could have easily come into my vehicle thru the open windows (I was next to order) and hit me, now we have an assault, do you just sit in your car still? It's possible that he was actually trying to hit me and was just drunk enough to get his aim off.

    While there have been postulated many hypotheticals in this situation only one of us was there to know all the minute details that go into the decisions that were made.

    If you feel I put OC in a bad light, I'm truly sorry, that is not what I want to do at all.
    Maybe I have shown bad judgement in this situation, that is something I am evaluating.

  14. #14
    Regular Member teemgreen99's Avatar
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    Great Job!

    From the story that I read you did everything as best you could for the situation that was dealt to you. Had you taken the time to lock up your weapon before attempting to apprehend the two they likely would have been long gone. Had you simply not gone after them and called the police they likely would have never found the two. How much is to much? If the can had shattered his windshield would that have made his actions more acceptable? Do we just let minor door dings go and say to ourselves forget it? If you choose to open carry in everyday life then you are going to encounter many types of situations some may not need a weapon, and God forbid some may need a weapon. Either way you have no control over what happens in day to day life. Looking at this situation true a judge and jury may see the open carrier as the aggressor however that is the exact thing I think most of us are trying to change...the idea that only cops and bad guys carry weapons. Im not saying go to prison over it but I am saying dont back down when challenged.

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    Regular Member JBolder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teemgreen99 View Post
    From the story that I read you did everything as best you could for the situation that was dealt to you. Had you taken the time to lock up your weapon before attempting to apprehend the two they likely would have been long gone. Had you simply not gone after them and called the police they likely would have never found the two. How much is to much? If the can had shattered his windshield would that have made his actions more acceptable? Do we just let minor door dings go and say to ourselves forget it? If you choose to open carry in everyday life then you are going to encounter many types of situations some may not need a weapon, and God forbid some may need a weapon. Either way you have no control over what happens in day to day life. Looking at this situation true a judge and jury may see the open carrier as the aggressor however that is the exact thing I think most of us are trying to change...the idea that only cops and bad guys carry weapons. Im not saying go to prison over it but I am saying dont back down when challenged.
    Well said, I couldn't agree more!!

  16. #16
    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    When wording your reply. REMEMBER, he never drew his firearm!!!

    Read his entire first post -- not just the responses.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

  17. #17
    Regular Member ccrews's Avatar
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    Contacted by the City

    After several calls from LAPD Detectives I have a meeting with the City Attorney's office on Monday.

    In addition to the charges against the young man, I will be bringing up 42002.5 which increases the penalty possible against the offender.

    Justice will be sweetly savored.

  18. #18
    Regular Member ccrews's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claytron View Post
    Why did you tell the officer to give the guy his 1 dollar bill back? Seems kind of strange that you would be inclined to make sure a criminal got his one dollar bill back but then turn around and flaunt the fact that you are going to try and nail him to the wall in court...

    Is this going to be a situation where you argue every possible aspect to get this person in as much trouble as possible? Or as much trouble as they deserve? Sounds like you are actually excited about the fact that youve been placed in a position to be able to go after someone in this capacity.

    Theres a difference between punishing someone so they get what they deserve and punishing someone as much as you possibly can just because you can.

    Also good luck pushing that "tampering with a disabled persons vehicle" angle, seeing how you obviously werent disabled enough to prevent you from leaving your car to pursue them i doubt they will buy that.

    If this was some stupid punk ass kid then give him what he deserves and hope he learns from it, dont go out of your way to punish him just to have a good story to post about.
    I told the officer to give his $1 back because I don't steal, criminals do.

    What ever a court decides is not in my power to affect. The courts will decide what they deserve, just like those that have brought civil rights violation cases against LE agencies. With that kind of mentality, you probably want everyone that has won an award in court for OC 2A 4A rights violations to give the money back too.

    As for 'that "tampering with a disabled persons vehicle" angle' The fact that you would question someone's disability simply because they can step out of a car and slowly follow someone two small blocks shows complete ignorance. How many disabled persons do you know who live in their vehicles? We all make our way out of our cars at some point to go on with life as it has been handed to us. I already had to prove my disability to the State of California, I feel no need to do so to you.

    I bring up the additional statute to the CA as a mater of informing him of the situation since the charges have already been reduced twice over this process. And the information needed by the CA to be aware of the fact was not presented in the Officers or Detectives report.

    Im sure this kid will not be nailed to the wall as some have suggested, he will most likely get of easy. We all know he will not be going to jail, and I am only seeking the $390 to fix my car. Whatever punitive measures are placed on him by the state will hardly cover the cost to the citizens in man hours for Officers, Detectives, and other city officials that had to push the paperwork around. I repeatedly told the Detectives that I would be willing to drop the case if he came forward and made restitution. He chose to try and elude them and dodge calls made by them to inform him of this. By his actions the Detectives were frustrated to the point of turning the case over to the City Attorney. I think my character has held true in this incident.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claytron View Post
    Why did you tell the officer to give the guy his 1 dollar bill back? Seems kind of strange that you would be inclined to make sure a criminal got his one dollar bill back but then turn around and flaunt the fact that you are going to try and nail him to the wall in court...

    Is this going to be a situation where you argue every possible aspect to get this person in as much trouble as possible? Or as much trouble as they deserve? Sounds like you are actually excited about the fact that youve been placed in a position to be able to go after someone in this capacity.

    Theres a difference between punishing someone so they get what they deserve and punishing someone as much as you possibly can just because you can.

    Also good luck pushing that "tampering with a disabled persons vehicle" angle, seeing how you obviously werent disabled enough to prevent you from leaving your car to pursue them i doubt they will buy that.

    If this was some stupid punk ass kid then give him what he deserves and hope he learns from it, dont go out of your way to punish him just to have a good story to post about.
    So, you think for someone to be considered a "disabled" person they should not even be able to get out of their car?

    Just how disabled does someone need to be? Do they need to suffer loss of both legs and be on a ventilator to be considered disabled?

    What about the person who has a heart condition who can walk reasonably well, but at a moments notice may have to sit down to catch their breath?

    What about the individual who has a prosthetic leg, yet runs half marathons? Are they disabled?

    I have a friend who has end stage liver failure. He looks normal, acts normal, and is able to do everything anyone else can do, unless his blood ammonia levels get too high, then he is pretty much helpless and needs to be assisted to do the simplest tasks. He has a handicapped placard.

    There are LOTS of disabled/handicapped individuals, who actaully have "handicapped" license plates that look absolutely normal to all outward appearance.

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  21. #21
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    While I want the guy to be punished, CA VC 42002.5 sounds kinda sketchy. I'd be 100% for applying it here if the guy singled you out for having a handicap placard, but if he was randomly being a jerk and you were just unlucky then the possibility of a year in jail seems excessive. He probably won't end up in jail, like you said, but it's possible I suppose. This guy should just get a fine ($1000 or so), have to pay you back for your car, and 20 hours community service or something. I'd personally feel badly if some guy ended up in jail for something like this, even if he's a jerk.

  22. #22
    Regular Member leoffensive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    While I want the guy to be punished, CA VC 42002.5 sounds kinda sketchy. I'd be 100% for applying it here if the guy singled you out for having a handicap placard, but if he was randomly being a jerk and you were just unlucky then the possibility of a year in jail seems excessive. He probably won't end up in jail, like you said, but it's possible I suppose. This guy should just get a fine ($1000 or so), have to pay you back for your car, and 20 hours community service or something. I'd personally feel badly if some guy ended up in jail for something like this, even if he's a jerk.
    i say screw that guy and i hope he get punished to the full extent of the law :P

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