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Thread: Holy Crap!!!

  1. #1
    Regular Member usamarshal's Avatar
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    Holy Crap!!!

    I think this dude might own this police dept and the officer after this...haha

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp4gxTebjsE

  2. #2
    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    The OC guy was being a dick and "fishing". The cop was in the wrong and bit and will probably be responsible for the following lawsuit. End of story.
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  3. #3
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    They went round-and-round way too much. The OCer should have established once and clearly that he was not free to go and was being detained. He should have established once and clearly why he was being stopped (which was unlawful). "Investigation" is only a lawful reason to stop if the officer has RAS that you have committed, are committing, or are about to commit a crime. He should be able to name the crime. People being afraid of your lawful behavior does not constitute a crime on your part.

    He should have established that the seizure of his gun was not OK. He should have told the officer that he did not consent to the seizure of the weapon, but would not resist. Instead, he gave consent. He won't be able to sue for that seizure.

    He should have established clearly that he would not identify himself, but would not resist if the officer forcefully took his ID. I handled this by taking out my license, placing it face down on the desk, firmly putting my finger on it, and announcing that I did not consent to the officer seizing my license, but that I would not stop him. I held it to the desk firmly enough that the officer had to use enough force to remove it that it was clear that he took it and I did not give it to him.

    Let the officers know that you know the law and your rights. Give him the opportunity to do the right thing. But, make sure your ducks are in a row if he should choose to do the wrong thing. The detainee had ducks all over the place.

    Once you have been told you are free to go, now is the time, if you want, to start going round-and-round with the LEO about the law. While you are being detained, take care of business.

  4. #4
    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    I don't understand why some people would think this guy was being difficult. The cop was detaining him because he was doing something legal? WTF? I agree that he went in too many circles, but he was standing up for his rights and handled it in the wrong manner. The cop was wrong plain and simple. $$$$$$$
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  5. #5
    Regular Member CharleyMarbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodbender View Post
    I don't understand why some people would think this guy was being difficult. The cop was detaining him because he was doing something legal? WTF? I agree that he went in too many circles, but he was standing up for his rights and handled it in the wrong manner. The cop was wrong plain and simple. $$$$$$$
    I for one am shocked that the video survived but hey IMHO he now has a case AND the evidance to back it up. I say if he dosn't file a law suit he's a fool. As far as him being out fishing I call BS just cause he had the foresight to be prepared with a camera dosn't equal fishing. Bottomline is the LEO'S 3 of them didn't know the law and now they should find out the hard way! ! ! !
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  6. #6
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyMarbles View Post
    I for one am shocked that the video survived but hey IMHO he now has a case AND the evidance to back it up. I say if he dosn't file a law suit he's a fool. As far as him being out fishing I call BS just cause he had the foresight to be prepared with a camera dosn't equal fishing. Bottomline is the LEO'S 3 of them didn't know the law and now they should find out the hard way! ! ! !
    Or they knew the law and just simply don't care.

    I don't care if he was fishing or not I wish more citizens would actively work to keep police honest and in check.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  7. #7
    Regular Member CharleyMarbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    or they knew the law and just simply don't care.

    I don't care if he was fishing or not i wish more citizens would actively work to keep police honest and in check.
    a m e n ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
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  8. #8
    Newbie crisisweasel's Avatar
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    Fishing or not, this is the kind of incident which creates the kind of anti-police sentiment among otherwise law abiding people which serves no positive purpose -- not for the police who rely at least to some extent on cooperation from their communities, and not for those of us who want to appreciate the work police do.

    I have been stopped 3 times in the past few months for walking my neighborhood after dark on the sidewalk. It didn't get to the point of being detained, but police will stop and shine their lights and ask what I'm doing for having the apparent audacity to "walk on a sidewalk after dark listening to music."

    I'm growing tired of it.

    I am also alarmed that at this point police don't recognize this situation for what it is. Are they really completely ignorant of the gun rights movement in the United States, and open carry?

    I am trying to put myself in the shoes of the police. "Man with a gun" call comes in and I go investigate the situation. I see a person open carrying in a holster. I observe them for a moment to see if they are acting strangely (drunk, addled, etc.)

    Now let's say I'm not as aware of open carry issues as a civil right as I am. I begin to talk to this individual. Would I not recognize this situation for what it was the minute that camera came out? When it became clear the person was coherent, and that no law was bring broken, what positive purpose could prolonging the situation serve?

    I *know* at this point that I am going to be on YouTube and that this individual is asserting his rights. He's not going to back down and roll over.

    He has asked what law he is breaking and I have acknowledged that he is not breaking any law. Would it not occur to me that any further contact with this individual was creating fodder for a civil rights lawsuit, which would cost my department, and taxpayers by extension, money?

    How often does this have to occur with checkpoints, civilian stops, and so on, for law enforcement to get the message? I refuse to believe police don't know where the boundaries are.

    This creates friction for no apparent purpose. It could lead to financial loss, should a lawsuit occur, and already I've overstepped my authority, tainting any possible court case I have (I imagine; I'm not a lawyer) should I find some other pretext for arresting this individual.

    It bothers me that at least some police don't recognize this situation for what it is, and avoid it. Youtube is full of videos like it. There will be many more.

    The concept that all you need to do to have a person detained is call the cops on them and report them as "suspicious" is chilling. If I am of a certain race and I am walking in a community which is predominantly another race and someone calls the police to report me as suspicious, would that be legitimate? Do civil rights not extend to people carrying firearms not only lawfully, but in a way no criminal carries. Criminals do not "open carry in holsters, walking down the street" as far as I know.

    Which leads me to assume that some purpose other than the enforcement of the law was at work here. I will not speculate on what that is.

    We may need to have an exchange of views with police departments on this issue. I am sure the average American gun owner does not want to cause problems for police, or otherwise waste their time when they could be out doing actual policework. But there are some things which cannot be tolerated by free citizens, and being detained in this way is one of them. It isn't worth the costs, even if it means the occasional criminally-minded "suspicious person" isn't detained.

    Videos like this bother me, because they blur what should be a clear line. Police should not push the issue when rights have been asserted and police have confirmed that no law is being broken.

    I know this forum has specific regulations on what you can and can't say about law enforcement, and I hope I have not crossed that line. But I will say that I understand both sides here. We should want to stand by our police, and recognize them as having a special vocation in that their job entails significant risk on our behalf.

    But there are some in the law enforcement community who are hell-bent in trying to make me (at least) feel otherwise, and this does not bode well for any of us. My personal experience with law enforcement has been more negative than positive, even factoring in the prospect that police have bad days, or see humanity through a lens I do not. Even considering that, there are just too many things for which there is no excuse. Way too much unwarranted belligerent "respect my authoritah!" stuff.

  9. #9
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The officer was 100% wrong. "Investigating" in this case was nothing but a fishing expedition. The LEO stated that there was no crime in what the man was doing, but if he gave them his ID and if the ID and his gun checked out, he would be free to go. Presuming that neither are required by statute, as is the case in Virginia.

    Doesn't meet the standard for a Terry stop - no RAS or PC.

    Could the MWAG have handled it a bit better, yes - but still see no cause for calling a foul.

    Wonder what the follow up was. Anybody know?
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  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    From the posts: "When you walk down the street with a gun, you scare people".

    The response on YouTube was ok, but here's my spin on it: One citizen's fears never override another citizen's rights. If someone is afraid and/or ignorant of the law, they need either psychiatric help, an education, or both. When a law enforcement officer caters to their fears, they undermine the entire system of law and order, while ignoring the simple fact that I am no less nor more a citizen than the other guy.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    From the posts: "When you walk down the street with a gun, you scare people".

    The response on YouTube was ok, but here's my spin on it: One citizen's fears never override another citizen's rights. If someone is afraid and/or ignorant of the law, they need either psychiatric help, an education, or both. When a law enforcement officer caters to their fears, they undermine the entire system of law and order, while ignoring the simple fact that I am no less nor more a citizen than the other guy.
    Yea it is ridiculous reasoning.

    I told the Deputy Chief in a meeting when he was trying to use an example of someone might have been the victim of a "gun crime" wouldn't it be reasonable to ask me to wait outside? I said what if they were victimized by someone of another ethnic background than them would it be reasonable to make them wait outside?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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