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Thread: Way Around Needing a LTCF in vehicle?

  1. #1
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    Way Around Needing a LTCF in vehicle?

    Like another recent post says, i am planning on visiting PA in a couple months. I would really like to be able to open carry my pistol, and have found it to be perfectly legal in PA. but not when you are driving around without a LTCF? does this mean never? or can it simply be unloaded and the magazines separated from the actual pistol?

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    There are only a couple exceptions to having a gun in vehicle without a license...so that you can OC is not one of them.

    PA 18 cs 6106

    18 Pa.C.S. 6106: Firearms not to be carried without a license
    (a) Offense defined.--
    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.
    (2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a [FN1] valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.
    (b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:
    (1) Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers.
    (2) Members of the army, navy, marine corps, air force or coast guard of the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves when on duty.
    (3) The regularly enrolled members of any organization duly organized to purchase or receive such firearms from the United States or from this Commonwealth.
    (4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with a firearm, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the firearm is not loaded.
    (5) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed firearm.
    (6) Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks, or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables and other property in the discharge of such duties.
    (7) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person, having in his possession, using or carrying a firearm in the usual or ordinary course of such business.
    (8) Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair, sale or appraisal or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police), or to a place of instruction intended to teach the safe handling, use or maintenance of firearms or back or to a location to which the person has been directed to relinquish firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a licensed dealer's place of business for relinquishment pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S 6108.2 (relating to relinquishment for consignment sale, lawful transfer or safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a location for safekeeping pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S. 6108.3 (relating to relinquishment to third party for safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm.
    (9) Persons licensed to hunt, take furbearers or fish in this Commonwealth, if such persons are actually hunting, taking furbearers or fishing as permitted by such license, or are going to the places where they desire to hunt, take furbearers or fish or returning from such places.
    (10) Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs during the regular training season.
    (11) Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.
    (12) A person who has a lawfully issued license to carry a firearm pursuant to section 6109 (relating to licenses) and that said license expired within six months prior to the date of arrest and that the individual is otherwise eligible for renewal of the license.
    (13) Any person who is otherwise eligible to possess a firearm under this chapter and who is operating a motor vehicle which is registered in the person's name or the name of a spouse or parent and which contains a firearm for which a valid license has been issued pursuant to section 6109 to the spouse or parent owning the firearm.
    (14) A person lawfully engaged in the interstate transportation of a firearm as defined under 18 U.S.C 921(a)(3) (relating to definitions) in compliance with 18 U.S.C. 926A (relating to interstate transportation of firearms).
    (15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued license or permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state, regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth and the state under section 6109(k), provided:
    (i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed to carry firearms under section 6109.
    (ii) The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth.
    (16) Any person holding a license in accordance with section 6109(f)(3).
    Last edited by mrjam2jab; 01-31-2011 at 12:47 PM.

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    Do you have a license/permit from your home or any other state? See 6106 (11).
    Last edited by emsjeep; 01-31-2011 at 01:07 PM.
    "Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by emsjeep View Post
    Do you have a license/permit from your home or any other state? See 6106 (11).

    i am only 20 years old, so i am not yet eligible to get my CCW yet. i re-read the law posted by the first commenter, and it says i can carry unloaded to/from my home and also to my vaction home.

    so from what this says, i can legally OC going from one family members house to another, correct? as long as i am planning on staying with them for the duration of my visit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ehewitt1990 View Post
    i am only 20 years old, so i am not yet eligible to get my CCW yet. i re-read the law posted by the first commenter, and it says i can carry unloaded to/from my home and also to my vaction home.

    so from what this says, i can legally OC going from one family members house to another, correct? as long as i am planning on staying with them for the duration of my visit?
    No.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Game View Post
    No.

    no explanation? just a no? because if you read the hi-lighted parts of the following. that is pretty much what it says.

    (8) Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair, sale or appraisal or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police), or to a place of instruction intended to teach the safe handling, use or maintenance of firearms or back or to a location to which the person has been directed to relinquish firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a licensed dealer's place of business for relinquishment pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S 6108.2 (relating to relinquishment for consignment sale, lawful transfer or safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a location for safekeeping pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S. 6108.3 (relating to relinquishment to third party for safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm.


    so according to the bolded lines above, in PA i put my gun in its box unloaded, then i can transport it legally as long as i'm not just going to the mall, or out to eat, but rather going from one family members house to another, correct? i mean it is said pretty plain "in moving from one place of abode or business to another from of his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back".
    Last edited by ehewitt1990; 01-31-2011 at 05:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Game View Post
    No.
    Gee, that was helpful.

    I wouldn't push the vacation home or place of abode. They are referencing legitimate domiciles, in any event, this would require some research, you can't OC it in a vehicle without either a license/permit from another state or an LTCF, the best you may be able to do is unload it, lock it in your trunk, and drive directly from one place that you are staying at to another. Once there you can OC on foot, but don't put it back into the car until you are ready to leave. I'll look into this and come back later if no one else has anything to say.

    or in moving from one place of abode or business to another
    This appears to me, without digging any deeper, to be a provision for transporting the gun as household property when you are actually moving, as in, selling one house/business and relocating to another.

    or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back
    a vacation/recreational home/dwelling may be obscure, but I wouldn't tend to assume that going from your house out of state to Aunt Tilly's for dinner then to Uncle Bob's for lunch and Cousin Myrtle's for tea would count as transporting between vacation homes.
    Last edited by emsjeep; 02-01-2011 at 02:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by emsjeep View Post
    Gee, that was helpful.

    I wouldn't push the vacation home or place of abode. They are referencing legitimate domiciles, in any event, this would require some research, you can't OC it in a vehicle without either a license/permit from another state or an LTCF, the best you may be able to do is unload it, lock it in your trunk, and drive directly from one place that you are staying at to another. Once there you can OC on foot, but don't put it back into the car until you are ready to leave. I'll look into this and come back later if no one else has anything to say.


    This appears to me, without digging any deeper, to be a provision for transporting the gun as household property when you are actually moving, as in, selling one house/business and relocating to another.



    a vacation/recreational home/dwelling may be obscure, but I wouldn't tend to assume that going from your house out of state to Aunt Tilly's for dinner then to Uncle Bob's for lunch and Cousin Myrtle's for tea would count as transporting between vacation homes.

    thank you very much for the help. i am not planning on using that as an excuse to OC. and do plan to lock it in the trunk if i am going from one relatives house to another. i am just curious because i plan on staying with people from both sides of my family, and do not want to get in trouble because i am moving my luggage [which would include my pistol] to another home. the last thing i want to do while i'm back visiting is test the laws of PA. ha.

    if you find anything more on the subject, please let me know. i have also been looking further into it, and while the law does not really seem to be descriptive enough to answer my question, i'm not really ready to make my stay longer because of a bad LEO encounter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emsjeep View Post
    Gee, that was helpful.
    A yes or no question gets a yes or no answer.

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    If you are with your parents and they are licensed they can leave the gun in the car and you would be legal then. Read 6106 and come back with anymore questions.

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    Get a Maine permit. Then use that Maine permit to get a New Hampshire permit. Both states issue to those under 21yo. You need a permit from any other state before New Hampshire will issue, but the NH permit is recognized in PA. The Maine permit alone will allow vehicle transporting, but wont cover you on the streets of Philly OC or CC - you could then OC without a recognized permit once out of the vehicle. With the NH you can then also CC if you like.
    Last edited by knight0334; 02-03-2011 at 01:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    Get a Maine permit. Then use that Maine permit to get a New Hampshire permit. Both states issue to those under 21yo. You need a permit from any other state before New Hampshire will issue, but the NH permit is recognized in PA. The Maine permit alone will allow vehicle transporting, but wont cover you on the streets of Philly OC or CC - you could then OC without a recognized permit once out of the vehicle. With the NH you can then also CC if you like.
    Both are fast and easy to get....is that considered permit laundering?
    Last edited by emsjeep; 02-03-2011 at 02:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    Get a Maine permit. Then use that Maine permit to get a New Hampshire permit. Both states issue to those under 21yo. You need a permit from any other state before New Hampshire will issue, but the NH permit is recognized in PA. The Maine permit alone will allow vehicle transporting, but wont cover you on the streets of Philly OC or CC - you could then OC without a recognized permit once out of the vehicle. With the NH you can then also CC if you like.



    i have been really considering this, but was curious is to how to go about this? do i just print out the application, fill it out, get a money order and send it all in? i was reading a couple places that said you need to have proof of basic firearms training? is there any truth to this? and if so can i just take a basic firearms course here in arizona and send in the paperwork saying i completed it?

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    Here is the Maine app.

    You do need a training class.

    (5) Demonstrates to the issuing authority a knowledge of handgun safety.
    The applicant may fully satisfy this requirement by submitting to the issuing
    authority, through documentation in accordance with this subparagraph, proof
    that the applicant has within 5 years prior to the date of application completed a
    course that included handgun safety offered by or under the supervision of a
    federal, state, county or municipal law enforcement agency or a firearms
    instructor certified by a private firearms association recognized as
    knowledgeable in matters of firearms safety by the issuing authority or by the
    state in which the course was taken. A course completion certificate or other
    document, or a photocopy, is sufficient if it recites or otherwise demonstrates that
    the course meets all of the requirements of this subparagraph.

    As an alternative way of fully satisfying this requirement, an applicant may
    personally demonstrate knowledge of handgun safety to an issuing authority, if
    the issuing authority is willing to evaluate an applicant's personal demonstration
    of such knowledge. The issuing authority is not required to offer this 2nd option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    Here is the Maine app.

    You do need a training class.


    does it need to be a training class in maine? or can i take one here in arizona and just send in the paperwork from here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ehewitt1990 View Post
    does it need to be a training class in maine? or can i take one here in arizona and just send in the paperwork from here?

    From all I can tell, it doesn't have to be in Maine. Just a basic NRA handgun course will suffice. Most states aren't as anal about the training being in the state of issue.

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    The PA law against carry in vehicles has been misconstrued in my opinion by appellate courts to apply to handguns in vehicles even when out of reach of the gun owner (who does not have a LTCF). This should be a focus of legisltive attention - barring that, litigation to correct the eror of the appeals courts on stattutory construction and constituinal gorunds. NOTE: In my opinion the appellate court opinions did not follow prior appeallate court decisions, so theoretically this could be litigated and corrected in the appeallate courts, especially post McDonald case, and not need to go to the PA S. Ct.

    Having said that, your options include finding ANY state's carry permit (see Uniform Firearms Act (UFA) exemption in cars for ANY state's carry permit), the exemption in vehicles owned by LTCF holders, and the exemption for holders of Sportsmen Permits.

    Read the UFA closely to understand all this - then consult an attorney knowledgeable in the lastest cases in Pennsylvania construing the UFA - you do NOT want to be convicted of a firearm violation under Pennsylvania law - your gun rights and employment prospects for the future will be pretty much over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    From all I can tell, it doesn't have to be in Maine. Just a basic NRA handgun course will suffice. Most states aren't as anal about the training being in the state of issue.
    I got Maine with NRA Basic Pistol.
    "Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by emsjeep View Post
    I got Maine with NRA Basic Pistol.


    thanks. but i think i'll just stay away from carrying in a car for a week. kind of a waste of 100 bucks to be able to carry in the car in PA a couple days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    Get a Maine permit. Then use that Maine permit to get a New Hampshire permit. Both states issue to those under 21yo. You need a permit from any other state before New Hampshire will issue, but the NH permit is recognized in PA. The Maine permit alone will allow vehicle transporting, but wont cover you on the streets of Philly OC or CC - you could then OC without a recognized permit once out of the vehicle. With the NH you can then also CC if you like.
    Still have to obey the laws of Pa. when in that state, therefore you must be 21 years old and with a valid/recognized permit to legally carry concealed and/or OC in a vehicle. So if you are not yet 21, neither a Maine nor NH permit will help you in Pa.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Still have to obey the laws of Pa. when in that state, therefore you must be 21 years old and with a valid/recognized permit to legally carry concealed and/or OC in a vehicle. So if you are not yet 21, neither a Maine nor NH permit will help you in Pa.
    Not quite true. One must be 21 yrs of age in order to obtain a PA LTCF.

    THere is no age requirement for permits that PA honors...and in the case of transporting in a vehicle:

    PA 18 ss 6106

    (11) Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.
    Does not state anything about age either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Still have to obey the laws of Pa. when in that state, therefore you must be 21 years old and with a valid/recognized permit to legally carry concealed and/or OC in a vehicle. So if you are not yet 21, neither a Maine nor NH permit will help you in Pa.
    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    Not quite true. One must be 21 yrs of age in order to obtain a PA LTCF.

    THere is no age requirement for permits that PA honors...and in the case of transporting in a vehicle:

    PA 18 ss 6106

    Does not state anything about age either.
    Today is a good day - I learned something new. Thanks.
    http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-car...-a-page-3.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Today is a good day - I learned something new. Thanks.
    http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-car...-a-page-3.html
    I know the age thing was addressed, but even PA's own laws provide for those under 21, but older than 18 to conceal while hunting, fishing, trapping, and dog training via the Sportsmans Permit. While that isn't full blown concealed carry, you can conceal and vehicle carry to, from, and during those sporting activities with the SP.

    The lawful age of possession in PA is 18, not 21. The law is absent on declaring an age to conceal, only an age to be eligible for a LTCF. If you have a permit/license that is recognized by PA, and if you are 18, you can carry concealed or in a vehicle.

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