Running scenarios

This is not a true tale but is apropos, I think.

My partner and I try to run scenarios. For example, she asked me 'what would you do if we were in the convenience store and someone came in to rob the store and we were in the back making coffee?'.

I said, 'well if it was just one guy, I'd try to make my way to the front of the store and have you 'cover me'. Since I walk with a cane, I would need her to do so. Then I said, 'I'd then cover you as we got to the door, and we'd make our way to the car and try to drive away'.

She said 'well you know sometimes these guys have a confederate in the parking lot'.

I said, 'it's a good idea not to show we are CC and it might be best to have the gun in your vest pocket and ready to fire, finger off the trigger, but indexed'.

So, the upshot is that we'd draw our HG and put it in the pocket and be prepared to shoot, gun in hand, and proceed out the door. If it was a case of multiple robbers, we decided it would be best to lay low in the back of the store behind cover until they left.

Biggest problem is the cash register is near the doors.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Comments?

Staying in back might be your best bet and laying as low as possible.

See this deadly convenience store robbery video...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...andating-gun-ownership-make-point-health-law/

You might be justified in shooting him but in this video, if you're in back, he's no direct threat to you, unless he decides to take out all possible witnesses....

billv said:

Staying in back might be your best bet and laying as low as possible.

See this deadly convenience store robbery video...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...andating-gun-ownership-make-point-health-law/

You might be justified in shooting him but in this video, if you're in back, he's no direct threat to you, unless he decides to take out all possible witnesses....

Click to expand...

well if they are a threat to anybody(i.e. cashier) then i believe most states would justify it,as you are coming to the aid of another person whom's life is in danger.

I would absolutely come to the aid of the cashier or other employees or customers. Whether MY life was in immediate danger or not (weapon pointed at me), I don't how far the BG is willing to take it. Things can escalate fast. I'd be fully willing to eliminate the threat as soon as the opportunity arose.

billv said:

Staying in back might be your best bet and laying as low as possible.

See this deadly convenience store robbery video...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...andating-gun-ownership-make-point-health-law/

You might be justified in shooting him but in this video, if you're in back, he's no direct threat to you, unless he decides to take out all possible witnesses....

Click to expand...

This link just brings me to a story about SD legislature... what video?

Hmm...I must say for something like that I would be torn. In one case, you are with someone you care for, and as such I would not want to be in any hurry to draw any unwanted attention to them, but at the same time, I would feel awful knowing the reasons for carrying a gun and not trying to protect someone in clear danger, or trying to stop such an unlawful act. So it would depend on the priority and the amount of danger I felt the other people were in to the danger of my actions on the person I was with, the person who I am with and their capability (you said they carry also) would have a large impact on how I acted.

However, if I chose not to act (for whatever reason), I would never try and leave for a simple hold up, I would do as the others stated and get as low as I could and have my weapon drawn and ready. Trying to leave would draw allot of attention to you in that kind of situation as in most case you would be walking arms reach from the person to walk out the door.

Our privilege to carry a Concealed Handgun is not to be a hero during a hold up or robbery.

In this scenario, my best course of action would be to stay in place, have my firearm in hand but not in the open.

Money/Property can be replaced, almost all business have insurance to cover their loss.
If the thug is trying to get some money and clerk is complying (as most are trained) then let the thug leave and "be a good witness" (description of the perp, direction of travel, vehicle description if one was seen, etc).

Now, if he turns to the rest of us in the store pointing the gun and asks for our money, then I could reasonably argue that I used my weapon in self-defense as I feared for my life (or permanent harm/bodily injury) and that of others, as we have no where else to retreat, and I had no other choice than to use my weapon to stop the threat.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm in the non-hero, good-witness camp.

I'm thinking any intervention on my part may increase the risk of the clerk or others being harmed--the robber may just leave with the money if nothing distracts him.

If the robber attacks or starts shooting the clerk, that's a different story.

ROBGIO said:

Our privilege to carry a Concealed Handgun is not to be a hero during a hold up or robbery.

In this scenario, my best course of action would be to stay in place, have my firearm in hand but not in the open.

Money/Property can be replaced, almost all business have insurance to cover their loss.
If the thug is trying to get some money and clerk is complying (as most are trained) then let the thug leave and "be a good witness" (description of the perp, direction of travel, vehicle description if one was seen, etc).

Now, if he turns to the rest of us in the store pointing the gun and asks for our money, then I could reasonably argue that I used my weapon in self-defense as I feared for my life (or permanent harm/bodily injury) and that of others, as we have no where else to retreat, and I had no other choice than to use my weapon to stop the threat.

Just my 2 cents.

Click to expand...

Not to disagree with the premise that, in many circumstances, when my instincts tell me that only things are at risk, not opening fire, being at the ready, and being a good witness may be the best course of action, but most self-defense laws (possibly all) allow for the defense of others. You don't have to wait until the gun starts swinging in your direction to act. The usual test for justifiability is whether you reasonably believed that you, or another, is in grave danger.

The totality of the circumstances will form the basis of my judgment as to whether people, or just things, are in danger. If people are in danger, and I can help, I will. If only things are in danger, I will remain on alert.

I believe that most of us are coming to the same point, just from the different angles.

Let's keep the "What If..." Scenarios coming.

They're a good source of exchanging ideas, suggestions, and definitely to learn from each other.

eye95 said:

Not to disagree with the premise that, in many circumstances, when my instincts tell me that only things are at risk, not opening fire, being at the ready, and being a good witness may be the best course of action, but most self-defense laws (possibly all) allow for the defense of others. You don't have to wait until the gun starts swinging in your direction to act. The usual test for justifiability is whether you reasonably believed that you, or another, is in grave danger.

The totality of the circumstances will form the basis of my judgment as to whether people, or just things, are in danger. If people are in danger, and I can help, I will. If only things are in danger, I will remain on alert.

Click to expand...

In Oklahoma, according to Title 21 Section 1289.25 Paragraph D, states that you may also use deadly force to prevent commission of a forcible felony.

Personally,if i dont see a visible weapon,id play the good witness thing most likely,or i may rely on pepper spray to subdue or help identify(alot of sprays have that UV marking dye now,could make finding a perp alot easier)

Unarmed BG attacking others,resort to pepper spray, and then lethal force if required(that could be knife or firearm)but i would keep hand on firearm while spraying in case it was needed.

Armed BG,im not sure,i may draw and order them to drop it and get down,then go from there(hold them at gunpoint or fire,depending on they're actions) or i may just shoot.

Its hard to tell exactly what one will do,there are just too many variables to consider for each of the many possible situations,one cannot properly plan for each variable of each possible situation(that list could be referred to as being "infinite")

Thanks for all the good replies...

In my younger days, when legalities were different - they put bad guys in jail and people didn't sue heros (in the 60s and 70s), I might act differently, and attempt to rescue another.

In my later years, I would NOT risk being put into the legal system to help a stranger, and I blame that on the legal system - my morality has not weakened.

As far as trying to 'escape' the situation, it would depend entirely on the layout of the store. If one could stay hidden in the back and not be an easy target, which I doubt, that's a possibility. Note I only propose escaping when there are two of us, both carrying. It allows one to cover the other. If you go by the percentages - only a few percent of people can hit someone with a pistol under stress and if you have cover as in a store with lots of shelves, and someone to cover you, escape is a low risk, high benefit strategy.

Think about it. There's one guy with a gun in the store and a confederate in the car. The main BG may think he needs to eliminate witnesses - he's got a gun so you have to consider that. He can call in a confederate if given enough time. If you are against two people willing to kill you (and as a civilian, generally we are not so willing to kill), they can flank you and even take a hit to kill you given sufficient motivation.

So, to me, escaping at the earliest moment - in fact even if you suspect something dicey, leave the shopping cart and go for the door (with concealed pocket coverage). We even have a code phrase for that and plan to practice it.

Huddling in the back trapped while the 'enemy' has time to plan is not the way for me.

$.02

hrdware said:

In Oklahoma, according to Title 21 Section 1289.25 Paragraph D, states that you may also use deadly force to prevent commission of a forcible felony.

Click to expand...

I was addressing merely the point of defending self versus defending others. That makes no nevermind to me. I do draw the line at deadly force to protect things. Alabama law allows deadly force to stop crimes the don't create imminent danger. I don't care. I won't use deadly force to protect things.

Also, forgot to add...

If you stay huddled in the back of the store there is a finite chance you'll have to shoot the guy. If you leave, though some risk, (and both armed), there's potentially a ZERO chance you'll have to shoot him, having left the scene. Nobody's ever been taken to jail for not being a hero, but many heroes have gone to jail (or been sued).

Again, I'm no spring chicken and walk with a cane, so no matter if I've had 30 years of SD training, I'm running, not fighting. Despite this, I still think it's a very BAD strategy to stay huddled in the store.

If you DO elect to do that, for goodness sake, do not huddle in the same spot. Arm and get some spread where you can cover each other and make it less likely stray bullets could hit both of you.