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Thread: Closing the "Open Carry" Loophole - Huffington Post (Editorial)

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Closing the "Open Carry" Loophole - Huffington Post (Editorial)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hoyt-h..._b_817200.html

    What would you do if you walked into a downtown McDonald's and were confronted with a group of men carrying guns? If you are like most of us, you would probably flee for your life and then immediately call the cops. However, in California and many other states, there is not much the police could do except keep a close eye on the armed men.

    While some states ban the practice of "open carry" of weapons, most states permit the open carrying of firearms, often with few or no restrictions. Ironically, some of the Southern states like Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas and South Carolina ban open carrying of weapons - a vestige of the post-Civil War Reconstruction era. However, in the wake of the Tucson shootings, efforts have begun to repeal "open carry" laws that have been exploited for political purposes by the more extreme elements of the gun rights community...

    There is simply no rationale for the open carrying of weapons, an act which itself can be viewed as a provocation. Even arch-conservative Supreme Court Justice Scalia has written that "Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose."
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    What would you do if you walked into a downtown McDonald's and were confronted with a group of men carrying guns?
    Well, it depends on what you mean by "confronted." If you mean that I happen to see some openly armed men (which the following context strongly implies), then I will proceed to the counter, order a double hamburger without cheese, a side salad, and a Diet Coke. I would probably also ask the guys if they post at OCDO and/or ALOC, pretty much expecting that they do.

    If you are like most of us, you would probably flee for your life and then immediately call the cops.
    I don't know who "us" is, but I am not one of you. Neither, I suspect, are most Americans, based on all the OC posted about here and the decided lack of folks running out of buildings and calling 911. The mere sight of a firearm does not put most folks (or me) into a panic. I will take note of it and the demeanor of the folks carrying. But, pretty much, I take note of the demeanor of all the folks around me. Those who are bearing arms that I cannot see are the bigger concern. Anyway, if the behavior of the armed persons is a concern, depending on the exact situation, my response could range from absenting myself from their presence, to calling 911, to using my firearm to defend myself.

    However, in California and many other states, there is not much the police could do except keep a close eye on the armed men.
    Actually, in California the law (unconstitutional law, IMO) allows the officers to do a lot to open carriers. In most other States, the law, at least as it appears on the books, does not allow officers to do much more than observe a law-abiding carrier. Good. That is what the authors of the Bill of Rights envisioned.

    While some states ban the practice of "open carry" of weapons, most states permit the open carrying of firearms, often with few or no restrictions. Ironically, some of the Southern states like Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas and South Carolina ban open carrying of weapons - a vestige of the post-Civil War Reconstruction era. However, in the wake of the Tucson shootings, efforts have begun to repeal "open carry" laws that have been exploited for political purposes by the more extreme elements of the gun rights community...
    It is nice to see you come perilously close to admitting that the primary reason that gun control laws exist was to facilitate the repression of blacks post-Reconstruction. However, the efforts repeal "open carry" have always been on-going. You antis may see the crimes in Tuscon as a reason to further restrict the carry of firearms. We see it as a reason to allow folks to have the tools necessary to protect themselves. How many fewer people would have died in Tuscon, at VT, at Columbine, or at Luby's had a single lawfully armed person been able to interrupt those rampages?

    There is simply no rationale for the open carrying of weapons, an act which itself can be viewed as a provocation. Even arch-conservative Supreme Court Justice Scalia has written that "Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose."
    An openly carried weapon, properly holstered, is no provocation. That is a pure construct of your mind. If you really want to fear a weapon, it would be more reasonable to fear the one that is deliberately hidden from you or, worse, the one carried in the hand. Those folks you see open carrying are following the law and present no threat. The shooters in Tuscon, at VT, at Columbine, or at Luby's, who concealed their weapons until putting them in their hands to go on their murderous rampages, are the danger. One answer is the presence of lawfully armed citizens who can motivate the bad guy to abort his intended crime or who can stop him cold.

    911 was called in Tuscon, at VT, at Columbine, and at Luby's. Dozens still died. Some of them surely could have been saved by lawfully carried firearms. Just ask Suzanna Hupp, who would have given anything, including her life or her freedom, not to have left her gun in the car that day at Luby's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    I wonder if my comment will get "approved" as in not censored:

    This comment is pending approval and won't be displayed until it is approved.
    You'll likely see it posted there as virtually all of the comments are in rebuttal to HP.

    The author huffs n' puffs, but like smoke, has no substance and is just a lot of hot air.
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    Most of us were openly carrying firearms here all the way down these tables, no one fled no one ran in fear, cops didn't show up, and Heresolong got asked by the one of the hostesses how can she and her boy friend join our "club".

    NavyLt was here too.

    I open carry my weapon pretty much everywhere I go, Banks, McDonalds, gas station, pick up my kid at school, to the police station (no more incidents there now ), Maybe someone from Huffington should spend a day with an open carrier before jumping to these conclusions.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Hilsman's a pinko writer who grew up in D.C.. No wonder he's 'fraid of guns. "...states permit the open carrying of firearms, often with few or no restrictions." States do not permit... states recognize (or deny) the right. He doesn't get it... 'prob'ly never will. All he does is project with some measure of irrational persepective hysteria. Hey Hilsman... it doesn't happen. Get over yourself.

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    That person has also been a frequent poster of late at Democratic Underground. His favorite declaration is that O.C. is "tacky".

    Even there he regularly has his ass handed to himself.

    Heh.

    P.S. I started a thread about this over there. More butt-handing commenced.

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PavePusher View Post
    That person has also been a frequent poster of late at Democratic Underground. His favorite declaration is that O.C. is "tacky".

    Even there he regularly has his ass handed to himself.

    Heh.

    P.S. I started a thread about this over there. More butt-handing commenced.
    Link?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    Hilsman's a pinko writer who grew up in D.C.. No wonder he's 'fraid of guns. "...states permit the open carrying of firearms, often with few or no restrictions." States do not permit... states recognize (or deny) the right. He doesn't get it... 'prob'ly never will. All he does is project with some measure of irrational persepective hysteria. Hey Hilsman... it doesn't happen. Get over yourself.
    It a PERMIT.... YOU HAVE TO PAY MONEY ?? I can't afford the permit in my state. I am Unemployed.... so i DO NOT have the right to carry.

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    What bothered me the most from the comments, was the undeniable feeling ,that most would throw us under the bus if it got them concealed carry. I also found it odd how many think the only reason OC is legal is because of how hard it is to get a CC permit. The comments only reinforce the need to get the word out that OC is a right and that CC(in most cases) is a privilege granted by the state.

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    If I were to walk into a McDonalds in the first place (my favorite for any fast food burgers is Burger King Ha!) and was confronted? by law abiding citizens open carrying pistols I'd probably give a sigh of relief, knowing I'm safer with them there than anywhere else, say a "no gun zone". Then I'd probably strike up a conversation about their weapons and their choice of carry, and explain my choice. Or just nod my head, smile and place my order.
    Sheesh the sheeple just really bother me.
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    Angry not to sound likea woman here.....butt OMG!

    Most of you here ( including my fellow statesmen )-( howdy all ) have coverd all the bases here. For me anyhow it too only took the first paragraph before I was pissed about all the blow hard Jack Wagonry the guy was spewing!
    So insted of pointing out the flaws as you all have done so well, I will ask some questions. 1: where the hell was the editor on the "confronted" remark?????
    2: where again was the editor on the fact that the artical in its entirerty is one inflamitory remark aboutpeople who choose to OC....just saying....
    3:loophole???? No sir not a friggin loophole! And " no rationale for open carry" umm......YA there is....I relly want this guy to provide factual informantion supporting his idea of no rationale....how about the fact that people who CC are attacked and the victoms of crimes, every day, all over the world....name one of a person in the US that was a victom of a crime wile openly carrying....
    My suggestion is we drop him off in Flint Mich. Or south central L.A. or hell even the central distric here in Seattle....or HIll Top in Tacoma....with a .45 that he can ONLY CC....or no gun at all seeing as he is such a wennie.....and then see how he feels about this so called zero rationale of OPENLY CARRYING A FIREARM FOR HIS PROTECTION!
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    I was amused by how that author *twice* mentioned the Jim Crow past of gun control, and did so without even a second thought.

    I've met numerous liberals who are repelled from gun control when confronted by its very unambiguously Jim Crow past. Who does this guy think his audience is? He's treading on thin ice.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I've met numerous liberals who are repelled from gun control when confronted by its very unambiguously Jim Crow past. Who does this guy think his audience is? He's treading on thin ice.
    I've met a few who were MORE than willing to embrace the White supremacism if they needed to to support the gun control. Aside from actual neo-Nazis, I've NEVER seen such contempt for Black people as I used to regularly see from White, "liberal" anti-gunners in usenet talk.politics.guns and talk.politics.misc. They were COMPETELY at ease using the most despicable racial slurs.
    Last edited by Deanimator; 02-09-2011 at 05:08 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    I've met a few who were MORE than willing to embrace the White supremacism if they needed to to support the gun control. Aside from actual neo-Nazis, I've NEVER seen such contempt for Black people as I used to regularly see from White, "liberal" anti-gunners in usenet talk.politics.guns and talk.politics.misc. They were COMPETELY at ease using the most despicable racial slurs.
    OK, but those aren't the people I was talking about. Obviously, some folks are so rabidly anti-gun so as to lose all reason.

    But those folks do not a plurality make. To pass further gun control, one would need to convince those for whom gun control is not a religion already. And, the racist history and present of gun control is not something which serves it well in the eyes of many non-racism-tolerating leftists.

    Now, I'm not quite sure what your point was, but on the off chance you think, or are trying to argue, that the left is somehow defined by its support of gun control, well then I'm afraid you've rather disconnected from reality. In San Francisco I am surrounded by "liberals", the vast majority of whom care about a million other things, including race issues, over than gun control. That there are some "liberals" to whom gun control is of utmost importance doesn't change this fact.
    Last edited by marshaul; 02-09-2011 at 05:25 PM.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigIrish
    not to sound like a woman here...
    Careful.

    I relly[sic] want this guy to provide factual informantion supporting his idea of no rationale
    There are 2 kinds of people in the world.
    One is persuaded by logic, the other by emotion.
    When we're dealing with the Brady Bunch & similar emotional people, we can't use logic & expect to get through to them. Use their "if it saves just one child" phrase against them - show where a parent has protected his/her child(ren) by using a handgun (or heck, even a rifle) to scare away or kill an attacker.

    name one... person in the US that was a victom[sic] of a crime wile[sic] openly carrying
    There was that guy here in Milwaukee who was robbed of his gun at gunpoint last summer.
    But that's the only one I've ever heard of... aside from OCers who are victimized by police.


    As for the article...
    Portantino and other supporters hope that recent events, including several shootings at Los Angeles schools, will tip the balance toward repeal
    There can't be shootings at schools... there's a Federal law against having a gun within 1000' of a school-related property unless it's unloaded & locked in a case (or on private property).

    the first legislation in California to restrict public carrying of firearms came in 1967 in response to members of the Black Panther party openly carrying guns
    So he knows it's racist, as are the laws in Southern states,
    and he knows the myriad of laws already in existance have no effect on criminals,
    yet supports MORE control?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I was amused by how that author *twice* mentioned the Jim Crow past of gun control, and did so without even a second thought.

    I've met numerous liberals who are repelled from gun control when confronted by its very unambiguously Jim Crow past. Who does this guy think his audience is? He's treading on thin ice.
    With very little research, one can find writings by the "law-makers" which make it crystal clear .......

    It was NEVER about "gun control", it was about African American control.

    Some of the things that went on in this part of the world, even the recent past, make my blood boil and stomach turn.
    What part of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" is so hard to understand ???


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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Now, I'm not quite sure what your point was, but on the off chance you think, or are trying to argue, that the left is somehow defined by its support of gun control, well then I'm afraid you've rather disconnected from reality.
    I was telling you what it was like to be a liberal, pro-gun Black man dealing with "liberal" anti-gunners.

    Have NO doubt that these behaviors not only exist, but are hardly rare.

    A few years ago, I was eating in a Lakewood, Ohio MacDonald's. An elderly cleaner began berating me for wearing an NRA ballcap. He declared that the NRA should be BANNED. I replied that the last time people started banning organizations, we somehow misplaced 6,000,000 Jews. His response? That he "wasn't so sure that was such a bad thing".

    Scratch an anti-gunner, find a Klansman.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marionmedic View Post
    With very little research, one can find writings by the "law-makers" which make it crystal clear .......

    It was NEVER about "gun control", it was about African American control.

    Some of the things that went on in this part of the world, even the recent past, make my blood boil and stomach turn.
    Just look at Chicago to this day.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    I was telling you what it was like to be a liberal, pro-gun Black man dealing with "liberal" anti-gunners.

    Have NO doubt that these behaviors not only exist, but are hardly rare.

    A few years ago, I was eating in a Lakewood, Ohio MacDonald's. An elderly cleaner began berating me for wearing an NRA ballcap. He declared that the NRA should be BANNED. I replied that the last time people started banning organizations, we somehow misplaced 6,000,000 Jews. His response? That he "wasn't so sure that was such a bad thing".

    Scratch an anti-gunner, find a Klansman.
    Hey, fair enough.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I know the "restrictions" started in Washington were specifically aimed at the black panthers. And I am pretty sure they were started in California at the same time for the same reason.

    I like the video "No guns for African Americanes", it shows well how the gun laws were based on racism and in many ways still meant to keep people of color from owning guns.

    Even the whole permit process especially in states that are a "may" issue still show a high discrepancy on who are "allowed" to get permits. And this in itself discourages many people who won't even apply, because they feel they will be pre-judged because of their ethnicity.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    There are 2 kinds of people in the world.
    One is persuaded by logic, the other by emotion.
    When we're dealing with the Brady Bunch & similar emotional people, we can't use logic & expect to get through to them. Use their "if it saves just one child" phrase against them - show where a parent has protected his/her child(ren) by using a handgun (or heck, even a rifle) to scare away or kill an attacker.
    Outstanding, MKEgal! Although their logic may be royally warped, to them, they still have logic. The only way to reach them is to lay out the truth in a way their own, warped logic will accept and help them limp towards the truth.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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