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Thread: Cpl and a vehicle search

  1. #1
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Cpl and a vehicle search

    I believe I know the answer but I need a cite which I can't find.

    Situation: A person with a CPL is stopped for a traffic violation. During the stop, for no probable cause the officer demands to search your vehicle.



    I believe you do not loose your rights to a search of a search of a vehicle

    A buddy of mine ,a cpl holder is absolutely certain that once you are issued your CPL you LOOSE your right to refuse a search of your vehicle.

    I believe he is incorrect, but I am trying to find the legal requirements one must DO with a CPL when involved in traffic stop

    he says his instructor about a year ago, a Shiawassee county sheriff beat this into their head, if stopped you do not have the right to refuse a search of your vehicle

    again I know this to be a case of disinformation, but I need to prove it to him
    Last edited by Onnie; 02-02-2011 at 04:45 PM.
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    You are required to disclose, but there is no cite for giving up your fourth amendment rights, because there is no law requiring you to give them up.

    As far as disclosure, it is here 28.425f

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...light=disclose
    Last edited by stainless1911; 02-02-2011 at 04:57 PM.

  3. #3
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    I believe I know the answer but I need a cite which I can't find.

    Situation: A person with a CPL is stopped for a traffic violation. During the stop, for no probable cause the officer demands to search your vehicle.



    I believe you do not loose your rights to a search of a search of a vehicle

    A buddy of mine ,a cpl holder is absolutely certain that once you are issued your CPL you LOOSE your right to refuse a search of your vehicle.

    I believe he is incorrect, but I am trying to find the legal requirements one must DO with a CPL when involved in traffic stop

    he says his instructor about a year ago, a Shiawassee county sheriff beat this into their head, if stopped you do not have the right to refuse a search of your vehicle

    again I know this to be a case of disinformation, but I need to prove it to him
    He was misinformed by an agent of the government. Need we say more. The onus is on your buddy or better yet the LEO to show the cite to support his version of the statute
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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    he says his instructor about a year ago, a Shiawassee county sheriff beat this into their head, if stopped you do not have the right to refuse a search of your vehicle
    Wow from a Sheriff!! I find that hard to believe....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    I believe I know the answer but I need a cite which I can't find.

    Situation: A person with a CPL is stopped for a traffic violation. During the stop, for no probable cause the officer demands to search your vehicle.



    I believe you do not loose your rights to a search of a search of a vehicle

    A buddy of mine ,a cpl holder is absolutely certain that once you are issued your CPL you LOOSE your right to refuse a search of your vehicle.

    I believe he is incorrect, but I am trying to find the legal requirements one must DO with a CPL when involved in traffic stop

    he says his instructor about a year ago, a Shiawassee county sheriff beat this into their head, if stopped you do not have the right to refuse a search of your vehicle

    again I know this to be a case of disinformation, but I need to prove it to him
    No - there must be probable cause of some crime to search a vehicle unless consent is given.

  6. #6
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinklerguy28 View Post
    Wow from a Sheriff!! I find that hard to believe....
    Not really...there are a few "old school" shi deputies around that don't like it. I've never been challenged by any of them; but have had a couple conversations with deputies that have "told" me about the "old guys" and how THEY feel about this open carry stupidity. insert all the dumb excuses here...manhood, shot first, conceal it..yadda, yadda.

  7. #7
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Regardless of if there is cause or a right to search, you say this:

    I do not consent to searches.


    If he searches anyways, calmly repeat.


    ...after that, as the cops say, let the lawyers sort it out.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  8. #8
    Regular Member TheGrabber's Avatar
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    I do have a question about this.

    If a officer needs probable cause to search a vehicle, but doesn't have any. So he asked you if he can search with your permission. When you refuse the search, does the officer NOW have probable cause?
    I'm not a lawyer, psychologist, or LEO. This means, don't rely on my opinion to work for you.
    But I am a railroad conductor.
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  9. #9
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    Nope, exercising your rights isn't PC or RAS.

  10. #10
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichRRConductor
    An officer needs probable cause to search a vehicle, but doesn't have any. So he asks you if he can search with your permission. When you refuse the search, does the officer NOW have probable cause?
    Nope.
    Exercising a civil right is not RAS of a crime.
    (Never mind which civil right it is: you're going to church, meeting with friends, blogging, writing your Congresscritter, voting, remaining silent, bearing arms, refusing an unwarranted search, refusing to testify against yourself, requiring the presence of a lawyer, ...
    None of which, BTW, require training, a tax, or a gov't permit to do.)

    There's a ruling by the WI Supreme Court something to the effect of: keeping your mouth shut is your right and no cop can read anything into it other than that you're choosing to exercise your right to remain silent.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 02-02-2011 at 07:59 PM.
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  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    You can voluntarily give up your 4th Amend rights by consenting ........ if you really want to do that.

    If stopped, I will give what is required by law i.e. driving license, registration, proof of insurance, and my permit - whatever is in accordance with the laws of that state.

    If asked to search my vehicle, I will respond, " I do not waive my 4th Amendment right."

    If asked to step out of the vehicle, I will and will lock the keys inside.
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  12. #12
    Regular Member RenegadeMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    I believe I know the answer but I need a cite which I can't find.

    Situation: A person with a CPL is stopped for a traffic violation. During the stop, for no probable cause the officer demands to search your vehicle.



    I believe you do not loose your rights to a search of a search of a vehicle

    A buddy of mine ,a cpl holder is absolutely certain that once you are issued your CPL you LOOSE your right to refuse a search of your vehicle.

    I believe he is incorrect, but I am trying to find the legal requirements one must DO with a CPL when involved in traffic stop

    he says his instructor about a year ago, a Shiawassee county sheriff beat this into their head, if stopped you do not have the right to refuse a search of your vehicle

    again I know this to be a case of disinformation, but I need to prove it to him
    I think maybe your buddy is confusing himself with the fact that when carrying a concealed pistol under the authority of a CPL, you lose your right to refuse a breathalyzer test.

  13. #13
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMarine View Post
    I think maybe your buddy is confusing himself with the fact that when carrying a concealed pistol under the authority of a CPL, you lose your right to refuse a breathalyzer test.
    IMHO that would be quite a stretch confusing those two.

    Educate me please - do you have a cite for the bold type above?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    absolutely............not..........

    If pulled over and asked for consent to search, your answer should always be "Officer, please articulate your probable cause." At this point he should back off, but he could also give you the sales pitches " If you don't have anything you shouldn't then you don't have anything to worry about", or " Officer safety" or my favorite, " If you don't consent, I will have to impound your car, get a warrant, and when we find something, we won't be able to help you". This is my personal favorite. Your answer is always a resounding NO. For the last one, assuming you haven't done anything too grievous, look him straight in the eye and state "Let me know how that works out for you". Judges do not give warrants to LEOs for traffic stops without very good reasons (ie on going felony investigation and report that you were involved with a crime. If you have a CPL, you have already passed a stringent backround check so it is highly unlikely that the officer could articulate reasonable suspicion or probable cause for speeding. Also keep in mind that officers ask questions but articulate them as orders making people believe that they have to comply. If you do let them search your car base on a statement like "Please step out of the car, I need to check inside ok" you gave up the right. No is the only answer.

    THere are alot of resources on the web especially youtube on this very subject.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    All

    Thanks for all the reply's, I was sure I was correct in the fact that we do not give up our 4th amendment right just because we have a cpl

    he has some other "facts" he was telling me about he was taught, one was that if you "Accidentally" display your weapon, say you coat open up and your weapon becomes visible to a citizen and they call the police, you can be charged with Brandishing.....I think we all know that is mis-information, also given by the same CPL instructor (sheriff), I was trying to explain brandishing to him, im not sure he understood. I realize that some over zealous officer of the law may try to make that charge stick but as we all know its a bogus charge and if that ever happened the defendant should be able to win in court hands down. I told him if any charge was going to be administered it would most likely be Disorderly conduct, which as we also know is another bogus charge.

    also was informed by the same CPL instructor that if involved in a "legal" shooting your weapon would be confiscated and never returned, while I have heard this one before, I would think he might have a case against the agency that failed to return his property after the shooter was found to have been involved in a legal shooting.

    He does not open carry but I have asked him to visit this site and MiOpenCarry.org to help him get the correct facts pulled out of all the bullxxxx he was taught.

    My instructor was a retired Roseville cop who with the exception of OC so far I feel was right on the ball, This is the second person with a cpl who has been given some real sorry information from there so called instructors
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    IMHO that would be quite a stretch confusing those two.

    Educate me please - do you have a cite for the bold type above?
    Here is the cite. Accepting a CPL is implied consent for drug/alcohol testing. 28.425k

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...0AND%20consent

  17. #17
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Here is the cite. Accepting a CPL is implied consent for drug/alcohol testing. 28.425k

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...0AND%20consent
    Appreciate it - don't like it and have to wonder whether it would stand THE test.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I don't like it either. What is "the" test? A2?

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Appreciate it - don't like it and have to wonder whether it would stand THE test.
    I was thinking along the lines of a constitutional question. Having to give up one right (5th Amend, self-incrimination) to enjoy another right (2nd Amend, RKBA) w/o any RAS or PC that a crime was being committed. No odor of alcohol, no slurred words - just applying for a permit and forced to give up that protection. That really bothers me.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Aah, thought so, I didn't quite pick up on the 5th amendment point, but I did get the jist of where you were going here.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    w/o any RAS or PC that a crime was being committed. No odor of alcohol, no slurred words - just applying for a permit and forced to give up that protection. That really bothers me.
    Read sub-section 4 in the law that Stainless cited. The officer still needs PC that you are under the influence.

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    Regular Member NavyMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichRRConductor View Post
    I do have a question about this.

    If a officer needs probable cause to search a vehicle, but doesn't have any. So he asked you if he can search with your permission. When you refuse the search, does the officer NOW have probable cause?
    If that was the case, the 4th would be meaningless. Thankfully, the courts have ruled clearly on this.

    "The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. U.S. 230 F 486 at 489

    "Where rights as secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which will abrogate them." Miranda v. Ariz., 384 U.S. 436 at 491 (1966).
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

  23. #23
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Unfortunately we all know that if you refuse a search they will most likely call in a k9 and give it the command for a false "hit", then they can search all they want. You'll have a hell of a time proving that the dog didn't "hit" on your car.

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    What didn't they find during the illegal search?

  25. #25
    Regular Member NavyMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    Unfortunately we all know that if you refuse a search they will most likely call in a k9 and give it the command for a false "hit", then they can search all they want. You'll have a hell of a time proving that the dog didn't "hit" on your car.
    US v. Place:

    Holding you while they called in a K9, absent probable cause, would constitute an unreasonable seizure because it exceeds the limits of a Terry-type investigative stop.

    The LEO would need to have a K9 present at the time of the original stop.
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

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