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Thread: BB Gun bill passed in the Senate

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    BB Gun bill passed in the Senate

    The Senate voted 25-14 Tuesday to approve Sen. Roscoe Reynolds' bill. It would allow using such pneumatic weapons when conducted with "reasonable care" to prevent firing outside of the property.

    Link: http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/politic...-guns-at-homes
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Good stuff, but now on to the House and signature. Where I imagine this will have trouble is the implementation of the "reasonable care" portion to be defined differently in each county and city.

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    Regular Member USNA69's Avatar
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    I admit that I have not been paying much attention to this, but I have a question.

    The Bill states quite clearly:

    E. As used in this section, "pneumatic gun" means any implement, designed as a gun, that will expel a BB or a pellet by action of pneumatic pressure. "Pneumatic gun" includes a paintball gun that expels by action of pneumatic pressure plastic balls filled with paint for the purpose of marking the point of impact.

    However, my Daisy Model 111 lever action carbine BB gun is NOT pneumatic. It expels the BB with a spring plunger.



    My boyhood Daisy was a pump action. Same concept: compress a spring, release a spring, expel the BB.



    It would seem that these types of BB guns are not addressed in this bill.

    Was that by design or by oversight?
    Last edited by USNA69; 02-02-2011 at 09:25 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USNA69 View Post
    I admit that I have not been paying much attention to this, but I have a question.

    The Bill states quite clearly:

    E. As used in this section, "pneumatic gun" means any implement, designed as a gun, that will expel a BB or a pellet by action of pneumatic pressure. "Pneumatic gun" includes a paintball gun that expels by action of pneumatic pressure plastic balls filled with paint for the purpose of marking the point of impact.

    However, my Daisy Model 111 lever action carbine BB gun is NOT pneumatic. It expels the BB with a spring plunger.

    http://www.howstuffworks.com/question649.htm

    My boyhood Daisy was a pump action. Same concept: compress a spring, release a spring, expel the BB.

    It would seem that these types of BB guns are not addressed in this bill.

    Was that by design or by oversight?
    Addressed very specifically.

    The type of BB gun you reference is still a pneumatic or as we used to say, an air gun.

    The spring loaded piston is located inside an air tube. The piston does NOT expel the BB by striking it, but rather by forcing a column of air against the BB.

    http://www.howstuffworks.com/question649.htm

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_t...sy_bb_gun_work
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    Regular Member USNA69's Avatar
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    My Face Is red

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Addressed very specifically.

    The type of BB gun you reference is still a pneumatic or as we used to say, an air gun.

    The spring loaded piston is located inside an air tube. The piston does NOT expel the BB by striking it, but rather by forcing a column of air against the BB.
    Dang!! It took me nearly 60 years to learn that.

    Just goes to show ya ....

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USNA69 View Post
    Dang!! It took me nearly 60 years to learn that.

    Just goes to show ya ....
    I'll let you in on another secret.
    Spring loaded is more powerful (Energy to expel vs Energy to expel) than pumpup pneumatics.

    That's why you see the most expensive and powerful pellet guns are single cock models.

    The power in those guns come from the piston superheating the column of air due to friction and why you don't oil the piston. It causes dieseling.
    This is in the small bores. In the large bores, .45,.50,.62...they need to be pump up (including dive tank fill) because of the massive amount of air needed.

    Lewis and Clark had a .50 pump up (Used a bellows to fill) that they used on Deer sized game.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    And when the homeowners start submitting insurance claims for broken windows, the "reasonable care" concept will come under fire.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    The power in those guns come from the piston superheating the column of air due to friction and why you don't oil the piston.
    Ya, but a couple of drops of 3-in-1 oil down tube of the old Daisy made the coolest "smoke"


    Lewis and Clark had a .50 pump up (Used a bellows to fill) that they used on Deer sized game.
    Fringe benefits: they didn't require keeping powder dry and were much quieter.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    And when the homeowners start submitting insurance claims for broken windows, the "reasonable care" concept will come under fire.
    If anyone is stupid enough to shoot out the neighbors windows...
    A. They're too dumb to own any type of gun.
    B. They are going to be charged with shooting into an occupied building.
    C. They didn't take the time to set up a cardboard box full of newspapers with a carpet backstop.

    Shooting a pellet gun safely ain't rocket science.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    If anyone is stupid enough to shoot out the neighbors windows...
    A. They're too dumb to own any type of gun.
    B. They are going to be charged with shooting into an occupied building.
    C. They didn't take the time to set up a cardboard box full of newspapers with a carpet backstop.

    Shooting a pellet gun safely ain't rocket science.
    It may be simple, but that doesn't ensure compliance. Shooting at paper targets is far less interesting than seeing if you can hit the stray cat on top of the privacy fence, or a squirrel in a tree. The kid who owns the gun will likely get some safety training, but when he invites his friends over, fun will trump safety. Eager kids won't be too concerned about where the bb goes if they miss the cat.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    It may be simple, but that doesn't ensure compliance. Shooting at paper targets is far less interesting than seeing if you can hit the stray cat on top of the privacy fence, or a squirrel in a tree. The kid who owns the gun will likely get some safety training, but when he invites his friends over, fun will trump safety. Eager kids won't be too concerned about where the bb goes if they miss the cat.
    Going by your philosophy, the antis had a good argument. That was one of them. No supervision.

    Rules are important. Supervision is important. The fear of being grounded for the next 99 years is important.
    If Johnny can't be trusted to follow range rules in the back yard, Johnny may have to take up video games instead of hunting.

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Going by your philosophy, the antis had a good argument. That was one of them. No supervision.

    Rules are important. Supervision is important. The fear of being grounded for the next 99 years is important.
    If Johnny can't be trusted to follow range rules in the back yard, Johnny may have to take up video games instead of hunting.
    There is already a law, passed last year, that makes it a crime to 'shoot' into a persons house. I will try to find the statute so that I can show the cite, but I remember this. I remember thinking that a kid playing baseball accidentally breaks a neighbors window and becomes a felon, how sad.


    § 18.2-279. Discharging firearms or missiles within or at building or dwelling house; penalty.

    If any person maliciously discharges a firearm within any building when occupied by one or more persons in such a manner as to endanger the life or lives of such person or persons, or maliciously shoots at, or maliciously throws any missile at or against any dwelling house or other building when occupied by one or more persons, whereby the life or lives of any such person or persons may be put in peril, the person so offending is guilty of a Class 4 felony. In the event of the death of any person, resulting from such malicious shooting or throwing, the person so offending is guilty of murder in the second degree. However, if the homicide is willful, deliberate and premeditated, he is guilty of murder in the first degree.

    If any such act be done unlawfully, but not maliciously, the person so offending is guilty of a Class 6 felony; and, in the event of the death of any person resulting from such unlawful shooting or throwing, the person so offending is guilty of involuntary manslaughter. If any person willfully discharges a firearm within or shoots at any school building whether occupied or not, he is guilty of a Class 4 felony.

    (Code 1950, §§ 18.1-66, 18.1-152; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1992, c. 738; 2005, c. 143.)

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    There is already a law, passed last year, that makes it a crime to 'shoot' into a persons house. I will try to find the statute so that I can show the cite, but I remember this. I remember thinking that a kid playing baseball accidentally breaks a neighbors window and becomes a felon, how sad.
    I already said that Nuc:

    If anyone is stupid enough to shoot out the neighbors windows...
    A. They're too dumb to own any type of gun.
    B. They are going to be charged with shooting into an occupied building.
    C. They didn't take the time to set up a cardboard box full of newspapers with a carpet backstop.

    Shooting a pellet gun safely ain't rocket science.

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I already said that Nuc:
    I agree that you said it, I only enhanced the cite a little and offered an enhancement of my opinion a little bit.

    I remember spending a lot of time shooting some little metal cutouts in my friends basement, he had a target air gun (very high end) and a target metal box with metal cutouts that we spent many hours in the evening having competitions.
    Last edited by nuc65; 02-03-2011 at 08:29 AM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    There is already a law, passed last year, that makes it a crime to 'shoot' into a persons house. I will try to find the statute so that I can show the cite, but I remember this. I remember thinking that a kid playing baseball accidentally breaks a neighbors window and becomes a felon, how sad.
    § 18.2-279. Discharging firearms or missiles within or at building or dwelling house; penalty.

    If any person maliciously discharges a firearm within any building when occupied by one or more persons in such a manner as to endanger the life or lives of such person or persons, or maliciously shoots at, or maliciously throws any missile at or against any dwelling house or other building when occupied by one or more persons, whereby the life or lives of any such person or persons may be put in peril, the person so offending is guilty of a Class 4 felony. In the event of the death of any person, resulting from such malicious shooting or throwing, the person so offending is guilty of murder in the second degree. However, if the homicide is willful, deliberate and premeditated, he is guilty of murder in the first degree.

    I think the kid playing baseball with his buddies is in little danger of becoming a felon from accidentally breaking the neighbor's window pane. First, he would have to be tried an an adult; second, the prosecutor would have to show "malicious" intent.

    Even in the case of the adult, local hoodlum deliberately/maliciously breaking your picture window with a BB gun or thrown rock while you slept upstairs would be a stretch for this law - the other necessary criteria are not present.

    BTW - this is the Code that is frequently used when someone is charged for having fired a gun while inside a building (within) or as an add-on charge when premeditated murder occurs therein.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-03-2011 at 09:34 AM. Reason: fixed
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I think the kid playing baseball with his buddies is in little danger of becoming a felon from accidentally breaking the neighbor's window pane. First, he would have to be tried an an adult; second, the prosecutor would have to show "malicious" intent.
    .
    But, from the next paragraph:

    "If any such act be done unlawfully, but not maliciously, the person so offending is guilty of a Class 6 felony; and, in the event of the death of any person resulting from such unlawful shooting or throwing, the person so offending is guilty of involuntary manslaughter. If any person willfully discharges a firearm within or shoots at any school building whether occupied or not, he is guilty of a Class 4 felony. "

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    But, from the next paragraph:

    "If any such act be done unlawfully, but not maliciously, the person so offending is guilty of a Class 6 felony; and, in the event of the death of any person resulting from such unlawful shooting or throwing, the person so offending is guilty of involuntary manslaughter. If any person willfully discharges a firearm within or shoots at any school building whether occupied or not, he is guilty of a Class 4 felony. "
    Still see it as an extreme stretch - the "kid" would still have to be tried an as an adult + playing baseball is not in and of itself "unlawful". That said, prosecutors can do pretty much whatever they want to do - see Skidmark's Surry debacle.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Still see it as an extreme stretch - the "kid" would still have to be tried an as an adult + playing baseball is not in and of itself "unlawful". That said, prosecutors can do pretty much whatever they want to do - see Skidmark's Surry debacle.
    Yeah, but it's not too hard to define breaking a neighbors window as "unlawful" ...

    The whole thing with Skidmark is a disgrace....

    Roscoe

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    Yeah, but it's not too hard to define breaking a neighbors window as "unlawful" ...

    The whole thing with Skidmark is a disgrace....

    Roscoe
    That is precisely my point. Attempting to make a kid a felon for a non-malicious act (playing baseball and breaking a window) would be "disgraceful," misapplication of the law, and abuse of power - all my opinion.

    Also recognize we are on the same side of the fence and just talking about technical unlikelihoods .......... unless your first name is Skid.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    "... throws any missile at or against any dwelling house or other building when occupied by one or more persons, whereby the life or lives of any such person or persons may be put in peril"

    If this can be applied to a baseball.... how in the world can tens of thousands of people watch real live baseball games all over the state every summer? A stadium is certainly a building.

    Your ticket waives your right to sue, but does not waive the law.

    TFred

    ETA: State law, reduce scope to state only.
    Last edited by TFred; 02-03-2011 at 02:31 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    And when the homeowners start submitting insurance claims for broken windows, the "reasonable care" concept will come under fire.
    The only thing that will change is that the police can't use this as an excuse to hassle people who already ignore the current law. Which means everybody.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    But, from the next paragraph:

    "If any such act be done unlawfully, but not maliciously, the person so offending is guilty of a Class 6 felony; and, in the event of the death of any person resulting from such unlawful shooting or throwing, the person so offending is guilty of involuntary manslaughter. If any person willfully discharges a firearm within or shoots at any school building whether occupied or not, he is guilty of a Class 4 felony. "
    This seems to criminalize anyone who's ever had an ND in their home. Make them a felon in fact!

    Not asking you to 'fess up, now that you're felons and all, but you know who you are.
    Last edited by marshaul; 02-03-2011 at 03:01 PM.

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Every one else already commented on it, you say unlikely but wait until it happens. Wait until an overzealous prosecutor uses it on a 'good' kid. It was an accident won't fly because, hey, it's the law and he broke the law. For all you have seen do you really truly believe it is 'unlikely'?
    Last edited by nuc65; 02-03-2011 at 08:43 PM.

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