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Thread: Open Carry MYTHS .... NEED FACTS

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    Regular Member marionmedic's Avatar
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    Open Carry MYTHS .... NEED FACTS

    Okay,

    I need FACTS on a couple of the "assertions" I keep reading and hearing.

    1. I would like the factual numbers and related information (links to stories) on the "many cases" there have been where "open carry" resulted in the firearm being "snatched away" and used against the owner or another person.

    2. I would like the factual numbers and related information (links to stories) on open carriers being "shot first" by robbers and other "bad guys" because they were seen to be armed.


    Yes, these are subjects that are used by CC people to beat us about the head and demonize OC.
    Yes, I want to have FACTS to refute their lies.

    Please help me find these answers.

    Thanks in advance.....
    What part of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" is so hard to understand ???


    James: Ain't this a little showy, Pa? I mean with the guns out an' all?

    Big Jake: James, don't be fooled. They all know what's in this box, and they all want it. what we're doin' with this audacious DISplay is tellin' 'em they can't have it. Who knows, we may be savin' some poor miscreant soul's life this way.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marionmedic View Post
    Okay,

    I need FACTS on a couple of the "assertions" I keep reading and hearing.

    1. I would like the factual numbers and related information (links to stories) on the "many cases" there have been where "open carry" resulted in the firearm being "snatched away" and used against the owner or another person.

    2. I would like the factual numbers and related information (links to stories) on open carriers being "shot first" by robbers and other "bad guys" because they were seen to be armed.


    Yes, these are subjects that are used by CC people to beat us about the head and demonize OC.
    Yes, I want to have FACTS to refute their lies.

    Please help me find these answers.

    Thanks in advance.....
    Well it's hard to prove things that don't happen. If there were cases where guns were snatched and OCers shot they would make the news. So far internet searches have not found any.

    Well, there was one robbery in Wisconsin where a guy was robbed and his OC gun was taken. It's not clear if the robbers did it just for the gun or if they noticed it while they were robbing the guy.

    While anything could happen and a gun grab or someone shot for OCing may happen in the future, it's still more likely you would be hit by lighting first. So possible yes, probable, not so much. I would rather OC and reap the benefits, than worry about something that is unlikely to happen (Gun grab, shot.)
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
    Regular Member elixin77's Avatar
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    none of those types of events have happened yet, so you won't be finding anything on the net. What you will find though, is that open carriers have prevented an armed robbery at a waffle house down in GA, methinks. Use that, as that has some weight behind it, for the 'oc is a passive deterrent' i always use whenever talking to people who mostly CC.
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    I suspect he knows that.

    The myths don't come up often enough and get refuted in other threads, so one had to be started dedicated just to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marionmedic View Post
    Okay,

    I need FACTS on a couple of the "assertions" I keep reading and hearing.

    1. I would like the factual numbers and related information (links to stories) on the "many cases" there have been where "open carry" resulted in the firearm being "snatched away" and used against the owner or another person.
    If someone makes such assertion, it is up to THEM to find those numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by marionmedic
    2. I would like the factual numbers and related information (links to stories) on open carriers being "shot first" by robbers and other "bad guys" because they were seen to be armed.
    See previous response.

    Quote Originally Posted by marionmedic
    Yes, these are subjects that are used by CC people to beat us about the head and demonize OC.
    Yes, I want to have FACTS to refute their lies.

    Please help me find these answers.

    Thanks in advance.....
    The "facts" are that if them make those claims, it is up to them to provide those numbers that might support those claims. Simply tell them that without statistical data that supports those contentions, they are simply not valid.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  6. #6
    Regular Member PistolPackingPagan's Avatar
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    From my exp with CC people when discussing OC a Majority of them dont care what number you put up, they will always find those "possible" issues.

    Some of the CC people I have chatted with even made some of the Anti Gun crowd seem mellow. The scream how stupid OC is, that anyone could grab your gun, and even if you tell them to show a case, they come back with the "So what if it didn't Happen it could" and "You give real gun carriers a bad name" and my Favorite "its stupid and you are just looking for attention"

    Sure a few may listen to you and nod when you give them this info, but from my exp there is a low number of those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingPagan View Post
    From my exp with CC people when discussing OC a Majority of them dont care what number you put up, they will always find those "possible" issues.

    Some of the CC people I have chatted with even made some of the Anti Gun crowd seem mellow. The scream how stupid OC is, that anyone could grab your gun, and even if you tell them to show a case, they come back with the "So what if it didn't Happen it could" and "You give real gun carriers a bad name" and my Favorite "its stupid and you are just looking for attention"

    Sure a few may listen to you and nod when you give them this info, but from my exp there is a low number of those people.
    Grapeshot handles the "it could" answer (or the possibility that it HAS happened, and we just don't know) by pointing out that even if there are a few cases out there, the percentage of time that it happens is so tiny as to not be a significant enough risk to make that downside of OC not worth the upside.

    Now, others may disagree. They may see the risk of OC not being worth the benefit. But that is what Liberty is. That is what the pursuit of Happiness is: The freedom to make our own risk/benefit analyses and to make our own decisions based on those analyses and our unique values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marionmedic View Post
    I need FACTS on a couple of the "assertions" I keep reading and hearing.
    I think the following posting will be a good read for you:
    The Open Carry Argument

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marionmedic View Post
    Okay,

    I need FACTS on a couple of the "assertions" I keep reading and hearing.

    [snip]

    Thanks in advance.....
    Ever hear the old saying, "You can't prove a negative?" Many others have tried to find incidents that support the proposition that OCers are targets and are at risk of having their guns snatched and being shot with them ... only to find no data that supports the statement.

    As others have said, it's up to the person deriding OC to cite the facts supporting his/her opinion. Otherwise, it's just that -- (unfounded) opinion...

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marionmedic View Post
    Okay,

    I need FACTS on a couple of the "assertions" I keep reading and hearing.

    1. I would like the factual numbers and related information (links to stories) on the "many cases" there have been where "open carry" resulted in the firearm being "snatched away" and used against the owner or another person.
    One cannot disprove the existence of something that does not exist. Put in this context, if there are no such cases, there is only a lack of evidence to support the assertion, not evidence which contradicts it.

    2. I would like the factual numbers and related information (links to stories) on open carriers being "shot first" by robbers and other "bad guys" because they were seen to be armed.
    Same answer as my response to #1.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    The Open Carry Argument sums up the advantages quite well

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyGun View Post
    I think the following posting will be a good read for you:
    The Open Carry Argument
    Thank you for the link to that essay. It was well done and worth reading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UglyGun View Post
    I think the following posting will be a good read for you:
    The Open Carry Argument
    Great read! thanks!

  13. #13
    Regular Member marionmedic's Avatar
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    Well folks, I just KNOW for a fact that the presence of a cop car at a convenience store discourages robberies.
    So I contend the presence of armed individuals would deter crime as well.

    But I have to endure all the comments by CC "purists" who say the above and other silly things.
    I was seeking numbers to give them.

    Maybe it isn't as important as it seems.
    ?????

    Thanks for replies.
    What part of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" is so hard to understand ???


    James: Ain't this a little showy, Pa? I mean with the guns out an' all?

    Big Jake: James, don't be fooled. They all know what's in this box, and they all want it. what we're doin' with this audacious DISplay is tellin' 'em they can't have it. Who knows, we may be savin' some poor miscreant soul's life this way.

    www.dixieleather.com - www.dixiepreparedness.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by marionmedic View Post
    Well folks, I just KNOW for a fact that the presence of a cop car at a convenience store discourages robberies.
    So I contend the presence of armed individuals would deter crime as well.

    But I have to endure all the comments by CC "purists" who say the above and other silly things.
    I was seeking numbers to give them.

    Maybe it isn't as important as it seems.
    ?????

    Thanks for replies.
    It seems you have missed the point. It is difficult for you to find numbers that don't exist.

    Try to find such numbers. Others have, and come up empty. Tell that to those who "cite" those myths, and challenge THEM to find these so-called "facts" since you have been unable to do so.
    Last edited by wrightme; 02-06-2011 at 12:26 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member marionmedic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I suspect he knows that.

    The myths don't come up often enough and get refuted in other threads, so one had to be started dedicated just to them.
    NOPE.

    Like I said, I wanted the information to "refute CC purists" who say we are "inviting trouble" and consider us kooks.

    I hope that in time people here will find my use of words to be exactly what I mean.
    With the exception of ONE post (the "i stopped robbery/rape") every post I make is straightforward and as honest as I can possibly be.
    I expect that from others, so why would I not try to be the same way to them.
    What part of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" is so hard to understand ???


    James: Ain't this a little showy, Pa? I mean with the guns out an' all?

    Big Jake: James, don't be fooled. They all know what's in this box, and they all want it. what we're doin' with this audacious DISplay is tellin' 'em they can't have it. Who knows, we may be savin' some poor miscreant soul's life this way.

    www.dixieleather.com - www.dixiepreparedness.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I suspect he knows that.

    The myths don't come up often enough and get refuted in other threads, so one had to be started dedicated just to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by marionmedic View Post
    NOPE.

    Like I said, I wanted the information to "refute CC purists" who say we are "inviting trouble" and consider us kooks.

    I hope that in time people here will find my use of words to be exactly what I mean.
    With the exception of ONE post (the "i stopped robbery/rape") every post I make is straightforward and as honest as I can possibly be.
    I expect that from others, so why would I not try to be the same way to them.
    Then you need to do some more reading on the site. The charge and its refutation has been posted numerous times.

    And, no, you do not always say what you mean, as evidenced by your "prove me wrong" thread, which, IMO, is just so much silliness.

    That being said, I did not say you did not say what you meant. I (wrongly) assumed that you had done a good bit of reading of this site and, therefore, knew that this issue had been raised and dispatched repeatedly. I will not again make the mistake of assuming that you have used this very site to inform yourself before posting.

    Moving on.

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    I liked the respnses

    Of telling them to prove it when CCers use those old tired arguments.
    Last edited by rottman43055; 02-08-2011 at 11:34 AM.

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    A bounty for the data...

    Those worries are out there but in the day of this internet thingy, someone would have documented it somewhere. The searches have been done many times but the data search always comes up with "crickets". Can I imagine it happening, yeah, I can imagine getting hit by lightning, AGAIN too. It all falls back to logic: you cannot prove a negative, but absent that proof does not equal a positive.

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    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Just finished a three week discussion on OC vs CC...

    There is a CC segment of the Taurus Armed forum and I really stepped in it when someone asked "Why CC?" and I replied to the thread and expressed my favor for OC.

    link to thread: http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...?topic=46000.0

    It was my first experience with the Anti-OC mentality from people with guns of their own. I think I did pretty well, using very little sacasm and asking for facts. One guy actually did the legwork and drug up the guy in WI who lost his gun to a robber. After doing some reading on that instance, I am fairly sure that guy would have lost his gun even if he CCed it. The robber cased him close up with the "Hey buddy, got a cig?" line and a chat followed with the drawn handgun and request for another handgun to round out the robber's collection...

    There were several people who are now taking a second look at OC because of the thread there and some who remain firmly within "the true faith of CC". Like I told them, I don't care how you carry, just carry. It's that whole Freedom thing we hear so much about...

    So, in hindsight, it was worth the trouble and good to excercise what I have learned here and on the streets of Kennewick. Thanks OCDO!

    ::Please don't open that thread up again... I just got it put to sleep...::
    Last edited by Freedom First; 02-21-2011 at 12:11 PM.
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    I've found that Open Carry is a visual deterrent.

    On multiple occasions I've seen people calm down or avoid being an extreme a-hole because of seeing the firearm.

    I watched a group of drunk individuals downtown being loud and obnoxious - My girlfriend and myself were walking to the downtown branch of her bank when they were coming our direction, yelling and what appeared to be "staring me down" with arms wildly flailing.

    They then saw the firearm on my hip and abruptly they became quiet, arms at their sides as they hustled away like a bunch of rats scurrying from the water.

    Not once did I touch the firearm, say anything, or instigate any actions. I just have seen folks appear to think twice when they notice the firearm.

    Whether they incorrectly assume I'm a LEO (I will never ever assert as such) or just didn't want to mess with an armed individual - who knows.

    I've also noticed that while Open Carrying here in Idaho that folks ask questions. I've informed people of their rights within this state and gave them a quick in-and-out of what's okay or not. The more people are educated, the less issues people will run into it.

    I've never had a single issue since July 2010 of open carrying every day. Not one police call, not one confrontation. I don't see any panic or people freaking out. I do notice glances here and there - which is exactly why I present myself in a friendly manner.

    When people start to realize you aren't a bad guy, they loosen up a lot. It pushes a better image of Open Carry and it becomes more and more accepted.

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    Regular Member 230therapy's Avatar
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    We have a verified incident of bad guys casing a restaurant and waiting until the OC'ers left.

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...bbery-kennesaw

    The criminals informed the police that they had changed their mind upon discovering armed customers and were waiting for Matt and J.P. to leave.
    Last edited by 230therapy; 02-27-2011 at 09:24 PM.
    Does anyone here actually believe that the Founders were sitting around in John Adams' tavern UNARMED because they believed a bar should be a gun free zone?

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    Last edited by eye95; 02-27-2011 at 09:48 PM.

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    Regular Member 230therapy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Did you miss the update? It asserted that the story was debunked.
    Previous post edited.
    Does anyone here actually believe that the Founders were sitting around in John Adams' tavern UNARMED because they believed a bar should be a gun free zone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marionmedic View Post
    Okay,

    I need FACTS on a couple of the "assertions" I keep reading and hearing.

    1. I would like the factual numbers and related information (links to stories) on the "many cases" there have been where "open carry" resulted in the firearm being "snatched away" and used against the owner or another person.

    2. I would like the factual numbers and related information (links to stories) on open carriers being "shot first" by robbers and other "bad guys" because they were seen to be armed.


    Yes, these are subjects that are used by CC people to beat us about the head and demonize OC.
    Yes, I want to have FACTS to refute their lies.

    Please help me find these answers.

    Thanks in advance.....
    Why don't you make this about both aspects of carry rather than attempting to launch an attack on concealed carry? If you're sick of the CC folks using this, make it genuine instead of it being a defensive reaction.

    Get the information as a whole and you'll have excellent information to support both kinds of lawful carry. The questions you've asked apply to both sides and are VERY relevant to us all.

    Just know this, you CANNOT leave out LEO encounters where the firearm was taken from the Officer or where a LEO was shot by said BG. They open carry every day, their info matters. The difference is the uniform of authority that can attract the problem. So that means it's impossible to illustrate a relationship and that the data is sure to be skewed on this particular subject.

    The LEO factor alone should present the skew illustrating that someone who OC's stands a greater potential for being attacked, disarmed, or shot than someone who CC's. But like I said, that's because of the Uniform of Authority issue that can draw a criminal element AND because they respond to those kinds of calls.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 03-08-2011 at 02:24 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member 230therapy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    Why don't you make this about both aspects of carry rather than attempting to launch an attack on concealed carry? If you're sick of the CC folks using this, make it genuine instead of it being a defensive reaction.

    Get the information as a whole and you'll have excellent information to support both kinds of lawful carry. The questions you've asked apply to both sides and are VERY relevant to us all.

    Just know this, you CANNOT leave out LEO encounters where the firearm was taken from the Officer or where a LEO was shot by said BG. They open carry every day, their info matters. The difference is the uniform of authority that can attract the problem. So that means it's impossible to illustrate a relationship and that the data is sure to be skewed on this particular subject.

    The LEO factor alone should present the skew illustrating that someone who OC's stands a greater potential for being attacked, disarmed, or shot than someone who CC's. But like I said, that's because of the Uniform of Authority issue that can draw a criminal element AND because they respond to those kinds of calls.
    The problem is there are no "official" numbers. Those numbers will have to be compiled by monitoring news sites and tracking them appropriately.
    Does anyone here actually believe that the Founders were sitting around in John Adams' tavern UNARMED because they believed a bar should be a gun free zone?

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