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Thread: Denver resident defends himself against intruder

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    Denver resident defends himself against intruder

    http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/02/0...y-day-shooter/

    So far the only people who think that Kutchin should have done something else is the mom and godmother. Who think that he should have fired a warning shot or shot him in the leg. I guess you could say that in fact he did unintentionally fire a warning shot. His first shot missed the target.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bebop View Post
    http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/02/0...y-day-shooter/
    So far the only people who think that Kutchin should have done something else is the mom and godmother. Who think that he should have fired a warning shot or shot him in the leg.
    That's because the rest of us are law-abiding citizens who may end up in Kutchin's place someday. Seems to me that he lost $5-$6,000 that night.

    Interesting "fact" about the Taurus Judge though. *eyeroll*

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bebop View Post
    So far the only people who think that Kutchin should have done something else is the mom and godmother. Who think that he should have fired a warning shot or shot him in the leg.
    No one should ever fire a warning shot, as warning shots can ricochet before wounding or killing family members, friends, or neighbors. The idea of shooting someone in the leg is about 20% hit (with high ricochet potential), 80% miss. It's Hollywood, and has no place in the real world.

    Moms and Godmothers: WAKE UP. If you really love your children, teach them not to cheat or steal!

    Whatever you do, make sure they don't attempt to break into people's houses. Many Americans are armed. We will shoot to defend ourselves, our own loved ones, and our property.

    We are not the problem. Those who break the law by robbing, stealing, and burglerizing are the problem.

    I am truly sorry for your loss, Ms. Gonzales, but the errors began long before that night, and culminated the moment Duran and his friends broke the law by illegally entering someone else's home.

    Whether or not they were high on drugs (also breaking the law) has absolutely no bearing on the case.
    Last edited by since9; 02-04-2011 at 06:39 PM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    "But he was a good kid. I didn't know he did drugs"


    Maybe you should have known.


    Sad and too often repeated. This is what happens when you don't parent your kids as 9 said

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    Refuse To Be A Victim!!

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    As an instructor, I teach my students to: Never shoot to warn. Never shoot to wound. Never shoot to kill. Only shoot to live.

    Just doesn't get any simpler.

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    IMO to stay out of jail, shoot to STOP. If stopping him also renders him dead, that's fine too


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    Regular Member usamarshal's Avatar
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    Center mass...done.

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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    No regrets, apologies, or other acts of sympathy are due from this homeowner to the surviving perps, or that mother.

    The punk breaks into a man's home with a gun, threatens him with that gun, and dies.

    Mama is not entitled to shift HER parental responsibility to her son's victims. Her son was NOT a "good boy" - and SHE bears the responsibility for that fact under Colorado law.

    She has no right to expect that the victim of her son's criminal conduct should have sacrificed himself for her failures in parenting.

    This woman has reaped her harvest. The post-mortem tatoo bit says it all.

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    Regular Member DinFreemont's Avatar
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    If you have watched this story you will know that Kutchin has his house boarded up.

    The victim was forced out of his house after paying thousands in legal bills and insurance and then the supporters of this young armed (and now dead) thief have threatened Kutchin and he was forced from his home.

    Sad - a man who wanted no trouble at all is ruined and driven from his home because he shot a thief .
    Last edited by DinFreemont; 02-06-2011 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Conversation wrong for this forum
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    Parents are generally responsible for the torts of minor children. Sue the parents for the losses. Particularly if they continue to vilify the guy for protecting himself in his home in the nighttime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DinFreemont View Post
    If you have watched this story you will know that Kutchin has his house boarded up.

    The victim was forced out of his house after paying thousands in legal bills and insurance and then the supporters of this young armed (and now dead) thief have threatened Kutchin and he was forced from his home.

    Sad - a man who wanted no trouble at all is ruined and driven from his home because he shot a thief who was part of an ethnic community that would rather support a thief than admit to the problem.

    With everything that has happened to this poor man since the shooting, via the thugs family and friends, it's easy to see where the thug got his training!
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


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    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by DinFreemont View Post
    Sad - a man who wanted no trouble at all is ruined and driven from his home because he shot a thief who was part of an ethnic community that would rather support a thief than admit to the problem.
    Cool your jets there. "Supporters of a thief" do not an "ethnic community" make.
    Last edited by mahkagari; 02-05-2011 at 05:19 PM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Momma says she didn't know her boy was under the influence of alcohol.... or opiates ... or marijuana.
    Momma didn't know who her boy was hanging out with, or didn't care.
    Momma didn't know her boy had access to deadly weapons, and was carrying one in the commission of a crime
    Momma says her boy was running away .. apparently towards the homeowner downstairs and the front door...


    Sorry Momma, your boy is dead, the victim isn't, and I'm pretty dang satisfied with it.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 02-05-2011 at 05:39 PM.

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    Regular Member DinFreemont's Avatar
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    Do you have a different take, I would be glad to hear an alternate explanation?

    Read for yourself the reactions.
    Last edited by DinFreemont; 02-06-2011 at 01:58 PM. Reason: Conversation wrong for this forum
    Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. – P.J. O'Rourke

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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    Sputum discharged over the web is as well spent when launched into a "chinook wind" and ultimately ends up adhering to the source.

    Decency dictates that we bury our dead, and perhaps apply the lesson in the hope that others will not follow in the decedents path.

    It is sad that law-abiding, and hard-working people must relocate and seek anonymity following such a tragedy. The pain of grief experienced by a parent is BLIND to the inequities of the lost child. It may take years for that parent to accept the reality of her son's death. Ultimately the truth must always be confronted.

    My Colorado and Texas family is a blend of decedents of a King of Scotland, a compadre of Pancho Villa, a defender of the Alamo, and an Osage woman. I have witnessed the passion accompanying such grief in the murder of a nephew in Texas, and an ex-son-in-law killed by a drunk driver in Colorado. It is what it is - nothing is going to "fix" what has already happened. Got to move on.
    Last edited by rushcreek2; 02-05-2011 at 07:07 PM.

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    Regular Member DinFreemont's Avatar
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    Now the problem becomes:

    What can we learn from this unfortunate event?

    Don’t get me wrong, I, just as most, do not look forward to this situation. Frightening, sad, unfortunate, tragic, painful, horrible, all words I think fit this event.

    I could add anger, as an owner of a home I am frightened by the prospect that because this person protected himself and his home from an armed intruder he will likely be forced to abandon his home, may have a massive loss to his financial position because of this event. Was forced to pay thousands in legal fees. (anyone know if a fund to assist this man was ever established?) Of course everyone who posts of the horror the man will live with knowing and remembering that he ended a life is correct, that man did not ask for that...

    What can we learn, if a thief forces you to defend yourself you will be forced into the legal system that will ruin the victim (you).

    You may be found by an unfriendly and unfair legal system to be innocent of wrong but that finding will be expensive and politically charged.

    You can expect an element of the community to add you to the we hate you list and this may make living in your home impossible.

    Thinking of this for the last few days I have yet to see an UP side to any of it, outside of the fact that the victim is alive and was not found dead from the thief’s pistol in an emptied house.
    Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. – P.J. O'Rourke

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    As to the comment made by the teenagers mother... you are correct. He didn't deserve to die.

    And before I get flamed---

    Your son chose a path with certain risks, one of those risks was that of an early death as a result of HIS choice to engage in illegal activity. He took a risk and ended up paying with his life.

    The homeowner is and was 100% justified in what he did. Did he want to do this?--- I can't speak for him but my answer would be Absolutely not, I have no desire to do something that will result in the death of someone BUT I too will choose to defend myself and those that I love.

    If some thug is pointing a gun at me then I am fully justified in doing whatever I need to do to defend myself.... Up to and including actions that MAY result in the death of a thug-- my intent is to stop the thug! Most effective way to do this is Center of presented Mass.

    Mr. homeowner, it saddens me that the actions of a teenage thug placed you in this situation. But, good on you for being able to defend yourself and those you care about from someone who was obviously a threat.

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    Mommas, don't let your babies grow up to be thugs and criminals! The expected life span is not that great. This really is sad all the way around. The teenager paid the price for his actions yes, but he also paid the price for obviously very poor parenting. Even though he committed the crime, I think the blame rests squarely on the mother. I don't care how much money you have or don't have, what race you are, etc. a child can still be brought up with respect for his elders (parents) respect for others, respect for the law, etc. But you have to start early when they first begin to walk and talk. Not to get off on a religious thing, but I believe it says somewhere in the Bible that "Raise up a child in the way they should go and when they are old(er) they will not depart from it."
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by DinFreemont View Post
    We can make a good guess at just what type of person is supporting the thief and that racism is a part of that, just how could it be any different?
    "Guess"??? YOU are ASSUMING the race of the supporters and you are calling THEM racist?? Seriously? I'll read the posts again a couple of times, I must have missed "Kill Whitey" in there. AFAICT, YOU are the only one making statements based on race. Let me rephrase how I'm hearing your statement to illustrate my perspective.

    "I've heard his friends support him. I assume his friends are of the same ethnicity. Therefore his friends are only supporting him becuase of that ethnicity. Therefore all people of his ethnicity are as bad. That makes them all racist."

    Show me an outcry from the Latino community and I'll lend credence to your point. As of yet, I haven't seen Colorado Latino Forum and MEChA staging protests about it being an injustice. This isn't a Denver police officer who gave a beating based on someone's race or sexual orientation, which we've seen plenty of in the past year. This is a thug who was in the wrong. There's not an "ethnic community" refusing to admit that. There are "friends and family" and a few knuckleheads. Probably a few progressive jackwagons who think any homeowner defending himself with deadly force is a murderer. I see nothing in your posted comments that wouldn't have been posted after a similar shooting of a white trailer trash meth head. Or are a couple of low class cliques of those in Brighton an "ethnic community"?
    Last edited by mahkagari; 02-06-2011 at 12:17 PM.

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    Regular Member DinFreemont's Avatar
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    The conversation is wrong for this forum, and endless parade of bonafides over political correctness are not going to gain anything.

    I see a reaction from a small group within a community that clearly would have a different reaction if the situation was changed slightly.

    A reversal tactic also will not gain anything.

    Kutchin will as we can see never recover a penny of his efforts to defend himself from the DA and is not out of his house he will also end up with a loss of his house all because he was robbed by a thug (and from the looks an up-and-comming professional thug).

    No upside - and it was aggravated by the DA and outside sources more concerned with a thief than law or personal property and rights.
    Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. – P.J. O'Rourke

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    Quote Originally Posted by DinFreemont View Post
    No upside - and it was aggravated by the DA and outside sources more concerned with a thief than law or personal property and rights.
    Anyone know the numbers on that? What was his $5000 in legal costs for? Just to retain counsel? If someone is in a similar incident as a homeowner how much counsel are you likely to need if it's a "clean" shoot? There was the case in Boulder a few years ago where the DA opted not to prosecute. What would be the aftermath of the shoot, knowing that ultimately you're not likely to be charged? The police would likely at least take you into custody to get a statement. May or may not hold you (which you might have to get a bond if you don't have cash for bail). You could get a lawyer for counsel while you give a statement, but I suppose you don't NEED one unless you're charged.

    I'm just trying to think of what Kutchin's legal costs might have been if not just having counsel present while he gave his statement.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Colorado was the first state in the nation to adopt the Castle Doctrine, or "Make my day law." No prosecution for any crime can occur when deadly force is used in your domicile. You do not need to mount an affirmative defense. It is 'protected' conduct via the law. Colorado also does not allow civil suits against the homeowner for wrongful death or any other BS from some shyster lawyer on the civil side of the action, so I don't know what legal fees they're talking about--can't follow the link, either.
    A scumbag broke into someone's home and was killed. TFB, imo. I don't care what color the scumbag was, or what kind of beer he drank. He got what he deserved. Hard on his family? Maybe they should have done something years ago to prevent it. Ran with a bad bunch? His own ******* choice to break into that house. Deprived youth? Lot of that going around and most turn out to be decent, law abiding citizens. Guess he won't do it again.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Colorado was the first state in the nation to adopt the Castle Doctrine, or "Make my day law." No prosecution for any crime can occur when deadly force is used in your domicile. You do not need to mount an affirmative defense. It is 'protected' conduct via the law. Colorado also does not allow civil suits against the homeowner for wrongful death or any other BS from some shyster lawyer on the civil side of the action, so I don't know what legal fees they're talking about--can't follow the link, either.
    A scumbag broke into someone's home and was killed. TFB, imo. I don't care what color the scumbag was, or what kind of beer he drank. He got what he deserved. Hard on his family? Maybe they should have done something years ago to prevent it. Ran with a bad bunch? His own ******* choice to break into that house. Deprived youth? Lot of that going around and most turn out to be decent, law abiding citizens. Guess he won't do it again.
    Howdy Gunslinger!
    Well said, and I agree with everything you've said regarding home defense.
    In my home, we have weapons for our defense. We have an alarm system for prevention of intrusion. We have signs posted to indicate that fact. And we have the dog, likely to be the first to greet an intruder and that can also be unpleasant considering he has the right to keep and bear teeth.

    Somebody busts into my home, their next visit is very likely to be the morgue.

    However when an intruder hears me rack my Mossburg 12 ga pump (Which is quite loud, btw) or hears the slide on my Ruger .40 as I cock the weapon, I'm willing to bet they'll be gone before I can get off a round! (actually I keep a round in the chamber with safety on, but I might rack the slide just for effect)

    That's the best way. That way he lives to tell all his chums how he almost got shot dead on the spot by a homeowner ready and willing to defend his home! That might dissuade other felons from trying to enter my home with nefarious intent.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    That's the best way. That way he lives to tell all his chums how he almost got shot dead on the spot by a homeowner ready and willing to defend his home! That might dissuade other felons from trying to enter my home with nefarious intent.
    Agreed. I had a conversation with our town's PD chief to that effect. He noted how many CCW holders there were in town. I said I wished we could advertise that to keep criminal activity at its low levels.

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