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Thread: Using religion to defend being armed

  1. #1
    Regular Member Michael Hopkins's Avatar
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    Using religion to defend being armed

    Hello all;
    As I've been sitting here reading posts all over the forum tonight, I thought I might ask a question that has been bouncing around inside my skull for a bit.

    Let's say you have a personal religion you practice and/or believe. Let's say this religion says you have the responsibility to protect yourself/family/others.

    Now, let's go the next hypothetical step and say the gov't tries to say (for whatever reason) the 2a is null/void or somehow otherwise tries to remove your RKBA.

    For the sake of conversation, how successful do you think a person might be to say "My religion says I must defend myself and my loved ones, and my weapon is thereby a tool required by my religion. Since you may not infringe on my right to free practice of my religion, leave my weapon(s) alone."

    I've seen others make this statement in passing, but was curious if this might actually hold water. Any case law or cites for or against this line of thinking and/or personal thoughts/opinions would be interesting.

    Mike
    When I told you you needed to trouble-shoot your PC, I didn't mean load it with .45 lead when Windows blew up again.

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    Well, these kids use it to carry knives to school, so why not?

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    The Gospel of Luke quotes Jesus as saying, if you do not have a sword (gun), then sell your cloak and buy one.

    Please note that I am not one of the LDS General Authorities and do not play one on TV.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Regular Member Michael Hopkins's Avatar
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    I guess that was kind of my point. Be it someone of a Christian persuasion quoting Christ-attributed text from the Bible or the Sikh kids in Michigan, they're following the edicts of their faith. And for some of my Buddhist friends out there, even the Dalai Lama has said if someone is trying to shoot you, it makes sense to shoot back.

    When we look to inalienable rights, the rights and the power therein must be derived from somewhere. In the case of the rights that are "God given," or simply inherent to the state of being human, these rights have nothing to do with a gov't either granting or restricting anything.

    In fact, it would seem that a human gov't saying anything one way or the other would be the peak of hubris. We, as humans, have no ability to contravene the messages another human believes has come from their "God."

    Not to say there aren't some nuts who hide behind deity to do truly heinous things, but for the vast majority of people, it all comes down to this; love your neighbor, take care of you and yours, and do what you can to get along and be a nice person.

    If "taking care of you and yours" comes down to defending yourself from someone, it would almost seem to be a dereliction of divinely assigned duty to not do so in the most efficient, effective way possible. For self-defense purposes, this often means a sidearm.

    Have a great night everyone, keep the input coming!
    Mike
    When I told you you needed to trouble-shoot your PC, I didn't mean load it with .45 lead when Windows blew up again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hopkins View Post
    I guess that was kind of my point. Be it someone of a Christian persuasion quoting Christ-attributed text from the Bible or the Sikh kids in Michigan, they're following the edicts of their faith.
    Mike
    The Muslim faith condones the murder of Jews and Christians because they are "Pigs". We can not allow everyone's individual faith to dictate the rules of law. Especially when the underlying nature of everyone by birth is an evil "sin nature".

    Would you want this Muslim lady to be allowed to do whatever she wants under religious freedom? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fSvyv0urTE
    Last edited by combatcarry; 02-24-2011 at 04:16 PM.

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    Regular Member Michael Hopkins's Avatar
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    As I'm not an expert on Islam or all of its subsects, I'm not going to comment on what Islam does or does not say in its pure form.

    However, we do know radical Islam is a problem. That is why I stated previously that there are those that hide behind deity to do heinous things ("I killed these (insert non-Muslim group here) because Allah told me to.").

    When someone uses religious freedom to do something stupid and/or evil, they need to be held to account just as if anyone were to go out tomorrow and murder someone "just because."

    So, no, I don't want anyone murdering anyone for any reason, nor am I looking for religious rule of law. Sorry if that was somehow implied. I guess I was simply trying to point out that our right to defend ourselves is inherent and tie in freedom of religion to give a little more ammo to the argument. Perhaps I was not as eloquent as I had hoped.

    Hope to see a lot of you tonight in Layton!
    Mike
    When I told you you needed to trouble-shoot your PC, I didn't mean load it with .45 lead when Windows blew up again.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hopkins View Post
    As I'm not an expert on Islam or all of its subsects, I'm not going to comment on what Islam does or does not say in its pure form.

    However, we do know radical Islam is a problem. That is why I stated previously that there are those that hide behind deity to do heinous things ("I killed these (insert non-Muslim group here) because Allah told me to.").

    When someone uses religious freedom to do something stupid and/or evil, they need to be held to account just as if anyone were to go out tomorrow and murder someone "just because."

    So, no, I don't want anyone murdering anyone for any reason, nor am I looking for religious rule of law. Sorry if that was somehow implied. I guess I was simply trying to point out that our right to defend ourselves is inherent and tie in freedom of religion to give a little more ammo to the argument. Perhaps I was not as eloquent as I had hoped.

    Hope to see a lot of you tonight in Layton!
    Mike
    If you want to find out about Islam, I highly recommend Usama Dakdok or Adam Francisco.

    http://godwhisperers.org/2011/02/epi...dam-francisco/

    http://godwhisperers.org/2011/02/epi...dam-francisco/

    http://www.amazon.com/Martin-Luther-.../dp/9004160434
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  8. #8
    McX
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    Hmmm, interesting concept. i could issue a statement that i carry a gun, in accordance with the laws of my state, because other religious beliefs seek to violently usurp mine. wonder if chief knobby can dig that?
    Last edited by McX; 02-24-2011 at 05:56 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    I think my Wisconsin friends Proteus and McX are here to spy on what I write in the Utah forum.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

  10. #10
    McX
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    Negative JPM. i was drawn by the topic. but since your here i feel better. I saw an ad for the Utah classes in the local paper, well presented. I dont know what the results were, nor do i know who was teaching, but it was nice to see it put out into the local consciousness. then i read a title on a thread of Utah considering Constitutional, and i wondered if you would expand on the impact on the Utah permit if that goes that way. Anyway, you'd better bring your kitty headed butt to Lizzy's for a Fri evening meet, or Sunday morning brunch when you hit town, lest i be offended.

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    I think my Wisconsin friends Proteus and McX are here to spy on what I write in the Utah forum.
    Now that's paranoia!

    I'm just trying to follow states that are going to the right way to recognize people's right to defend themselves.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  12. #12
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    Negative JPM. i was drawn by the topic. but since your here i feel better. I saw an ad for the Utah classes in the local paper, well presented. I dont know what the results were, nor do i know who was teaching, but it was nice to see it put out into the local consciousness. then i read a title on a thread of Utah considering Constitutional, and i wondered if you would expand on the impact on the Utah permit if that goes that way. Anyway, you'd better bring your kitty headed butt to Lizzy's for a Fri evening meet, or Sunday morning brunch when you hit town, lest i be offended.
    Hey McX,

    Of course I am on Utah Open Carry - After moving from Wisconsin nearly two years ago, I now live in Utah.

    As presented by the local media here in Utah, the Constitutional Carry Bill introduced by Representative Carl Wimmer the other day would not do a thing for those who might find themselves in a Federal Gun Free School Zone, or help them get through the Federal Brady Background Check ( with my permit, I get through the background check before the clerk can complete my payment by credit card - and I can carry my concealed or open carry firearm in any K-12 or post-secondary public school in the State).

    Tomorrow I will be teaching a Concealed Firearm Permit Course to about 20 Utah teachers who, pursuant to Utah Law, want to carry a concealed firearm to protect their students and themselves in the classroom. This is entirely legal in Utah and it is a major reason why there has not been a Columbine or Virginia Tech sort of episode here in Mormon Country.

    My dear Wisconsin friends, if you want to keep your children safe in school,, do not restrict firearms - require them. Let every teacher go armed and, because they are a teacher, get recurrent firearms training.

    Carry on my friends, Proudly Carry On.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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