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Thread: cpl suspension

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    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    cpl suspension

    anybody know if the state of michigan can or would suspend your CPL for back taxes, child support, or any fines owed for anything? i ask because i do owe some back taxes and wouldn't surprise me if they did it. i know they do for child support but have they expanded that? i would hate to be in a LEO situation to have them come back from the patrol car with "well, well, well...guess what...."

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    I do not know the answer to your question. But did you see this post on MGO from today too?

    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...d.php?t=122417

    Is that what prompted this?
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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    God Bless

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    If your CPL is suspended, the gun board is supposed to send you a letter to your last known address stating it is suspended and requesting the CPL be returned.

    It happened to my buddy. He got a letter in the mail, it stated his CPL was suspended due to a recent arrest, and that he had to return his CPL. However it was all a mistake and they confused him with someone else. He has a common name and was able to resolve the issue over the phone.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    anybody know if the state of michigan can or would suspend your CPL for back taxes, child support, or any fines owed for anything? i ask because i do owe some back taxes and wouldn't surprise me if they did it. i know they do for child support but have they expanded that? i would hate to be in a LEO situation to have them come back from the patrol car with "well, well, well...guess what...."
    Please provide Citation/law/news article etc. for underlined statement above.
    I know that some states do this (Texas), but I was under the impression that Michigan could only suspend for those acts specifically in the CPL law which would have made you ineligible in the first place.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 02-08-2011 at 12:04 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

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  5. #5
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Just a hypothetical....

    If you don't pay your child support could the authorities charge you as a "disorderly person?"

    750.167 “Disorderly person” defined; subsequent violations by person convicted of refusing or neglecting to support family.


    Sec. 167.

    (1) A person is a disorderly person if the person is any of the following:

    (a) A person of sufficient ability who refuses or neglects to support his or her family.
    And if you get charged as a disorderly person would the gun board use that to deny or revoke your CPL?

    (i) The applicant has not been convicted of a misdemeanor violation of any of the following in the 3 years immediately preceding the date of application unless the misdemeanor violation is listed under subdivision (h):

    (xii) Section 167 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.167 (disorderly person).
    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Just a hypothetical....
    If you don't pay your child support could the authorities charge you as a "disorderly person?"
    And if you get charged as a disorderly person would the gun board use that to deny or revoke your CPL?
    Bronson
    IANAL, I believe they could, unfortunately.

  7. #7
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    They could only do it, lawfully, if you have violated criminal law.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Disorderly is a misdemeanor.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Disorderly is a misdemeanor.
    More importantly Disorderly Person is on the 3 yr. specified misdemeanor list which will keep you from getting a CPL.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Just a hypothetical....

    If you don't pay your child support could the authorities charge you as a "disorderly person?"



    And if you get charged as a disorderly person would the gun board use that to deny or revoke your CPL?



    Bronson
    For violating a support order, you don't get charged with "disorderly", you get a "contempt of court" citation and, if the amount owed is huge or you have ignored the aforementioned punishment, you get charged with "felony non-support". Neither is under the disorderly statute.


    http://www.michigan.gov/dhs/0,1607,7...251---,00.html
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    could just pay your taxes like the rest of us

  12. #12
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    BTW, the "person who refuses or neglects to support his or her family" is more commonly called a "vagrant".
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  13. #13
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    anybody know if the state of michigan can or would suspend your CPL for back taxes, child support, or any fines owed for anything? i ask because i do owe some back taxes and wouldn't surprise me if they did it. i know they do for child support but have they expanded that? i would hate to be in a LEO situation to have them come back from the patrol car with "well, well, well...guess what...."
    Please provide a citation for the statement that Michigan can suspend a CPL for non-payment of child support.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  14. #14
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beerme View Post
    could just pay your taxes like the rest of us
    You never fail to say something negative. Why did I bother to look?

    The man asked a question. Contribute to the thread or "S-T-*-U".
    Last edited by TheQ; 02-08-2011 at 08:04 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Please provide a citation for the statement that Michigan can suspend a CPL for non-payment of child support.
    off the top of my head, this is as close as i could come up with for that:
    http://www.stclaircounty.org/offices..._remedies.aspx
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  17. #17
    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Please provide a citation for the statement that Michigan can suspend a CPL for non-payment of child support.
    i meant to say that DRIVER'S LICENSE will be suspended for child support issues. don't know of any attachment to CPL hence my original question. sorry for lack of clarification.

  18. #18
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    i meant to say that DRIVER'S LICENSE will be suspended for child support issues. don't know of any attachment to CPL hence my original question. sorry for lack of clarification.
    There is still a State ID one can always get...
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  19. #19
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    off the top of my head, this is as close as i could come up with for that:
    http://www.stclaircounty.org/offices..._remedies.aspx
    License Suspension

    Under certain circumstances various licenses, (including driver’s, professional, hunting and fishing) may be suspended if so ordered by the Court.


    Each of those licensing acts most likely either explicitly states that the license can be suspended or courts have decided this to be the case, but I could be wrong.

    Since this is a website devoted to issues surrounding OC , and since Michigan's firearm law makes OC w/ a CPL even better... thereby providing that the two issues are often intertwined, I don't have the inclination to research each of the aforementioned licensing acts and set of administrative orders to find the legal basis for suspending other licenses. The question remains: Has this or could this happen to a CPL holder? If so, please provide a reference.

    I don't mean to sound like an about the citation issue, but what I find issue with is generally knowledgeable members not only believing something, but then writing it here for others to start believing it too.

    I understand that we are all responsible to research the law if we choose to carry, but it also behooves us to not state unequivocally what we may think as "fact" until we do a little research ourselves. I have been guilty of this myself and have appreciated other members calling me on it... and I hope that no one is offended or thinks I'm just trying to quarrel.

    Unlike other pro-2A websites that I have visited, the standards here regarding legal issues are high and bring about a certain sense of "quality" that is rarely found.

    Yes, it does go both ways so if you find a citation... please post. I just haven't seen it.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    i meant to say that DRIVER'S LICENSE will be suspended for child support issues. don't know of any attachment to CPL hence my original question. sorry for lack of clarification.
    Kein Problem... So to answer your question: I don't think so.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  21. #21
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    I'm not offended, I fully support this. It is also what IMO sets this forum above the rest. I will try to provide cite whenever I can.

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    off the top of my head, this is as close as i could come up with for that:
    http://www.stclaircounty.org/offices..._remedies.aspx
    As an aside, I always thought this legislation was illogical... let's say someone CAN'T pay due to health issues or loss of job (this is Michigan), so let's take the person's professional license away so he or she can't find a new one... and let's not allow him or her to drive to work. That will definately ensure that he or she starts making those timely payments...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    BTW, the "person who refuses or neglects to support his or her family" is more commonly called a "vagrant".
    Here's the full law. Notice they list "vagrant" and "a person of sufficient ability who refuses or neglects to support his or her family" as two separate and distinct qualifers for being a "disorderly person."

    750.167 “Disorderly person” defined; subsequent violations by person convicted of refusing or neglecting to support family.

    Sec. 167.
    (1) A person is a disorderly person if the person is any of the following:

    (a) A person of sufficient ability who refuses or neglects to support his or her family.

    (b) A common prostitute.

    (c) A window peeper.

    (d) A person who engages in an illegal occupation or business.

    (e) A person who is intoxicated in a public place and who is either endangering directly the safety of another person or of property or is acting in a manner that causes a public disturbance.

    (f) A person who is engaged in indecent or obscene conduct in a public place.

    (g) A vagrant.

    (h) A person found begging in a public place.

    (i) A person found loitering in a house of ill fame or prostitution or place where prostitution or lewdness is practiced, encouraged, or allowed.

    (j) A person who knowingly loiters in or about a place where an illegal occupation or business is being conducted.

    (k) A person who loiters in or about a police station, police headquarters building, county jail, hospital, court building, or other public building or place for the purpose of soliciting employment of legal services or the services of sureties upon criminal recognizances.

    (l) A person who is found jostling or roughly crowding people unnecessarily in a public place.

    (2) When a person, who has been convicted of refusing or neglecting to support his or her family under this section, is then charged with subsequent violations within a period of 2 years, that person shall be prosecuted as a second offender, or third and subsequent offender, as provided in section 168, if the family of that person is then receiving public relief or support.


    I don't really have a dog in this fight since I don't have any spawn, but I also found this.

    400.233b Child support arrearage amnesty period; designation; terms and conditions; administration; notification.
    Sec. 3b.

    (1) The director of the department shall direct the office to designate a period of not less than 90 days that ends not more than 7 months after the effective date of this section as a child support arrearage amnesty period. Under the terms and conditions set forth in subsection (2), the director, or the director's designee, shall grant a payer amnesty, waiving all criminal and civil penalties provided by law for the payer's failure or refusal to pay past due child support. Amnesty granted under this section waives criminal and civil penalties for failure or refusal to pay child support only in regard to the child support arrearage that the payer pays in total to qualify for amnesty.

    (2) To qualify for amnesty under this section, a payer shall pay his or her child support arrearage amount either in total with the submission of the written amnesty request or by paying not less than 50% of the total amount with the submission of the written amnesty request and the balance before the amnesty period ends. A payer's amnesty is effective on the date the director, or the director's designee, receives the payer's written amnesty request with the payment of not less than 50% of the total child support arrearage amount. If a payer pays less than 100% of the total child support arrearage amount with the amnesty request, the payer's amnesty terminates at the end of the amnesty period unless the balance is paid before the amnesty period ends.

    (3) A payer is not eligible to qualify for amnesty under this section if, before the payer submits the written request for amnesty and a payment as required by subsection (2), 1 or more of the following occur:

    (a) Prosecution is initiated against the payer under section 161, 165, or 167(1)(a) or (2) of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.161, 750.165, and 750.167.

    (b) The payer is arrested on a criminal warrant or bench warrant related to the payer's failure or refusal to pay past due child support.

    (4) The office shall administer the amnesty program established by this section. As part of its administrative duties, at least 60 days before the start of the amnesty period, the office shall notify payers who may be eligible for amnesty under this section because they owe a child support arrearage. A description of the amnesty program included in scheduled notices and posted on the department's website is sufficient compliance with this notification requirement.


    The bolded section 167(1)(a) is the "disorderly person" statute, specifically the "person of sufficient ability who refuses or neglects to support his or her family" section quoted above. It appears the law recognizes that somebody could be charged with "disorderly person" in connection with not paying child support if they are otherwise able. This has no bearing on whether or not the non-payer will be charged with disorderly or would normally be charged with something else. It's just that the law seems to recognize the possibility.

    Again, this was just a couple of cursory searches. I have no idea what crime prosecutors normally bring against a non-paying parent. I just think the possibilty for getting hit with a disorderly person charge does exist and if you were convicted of disorderly you'd lose your CPL.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  24. #24
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    if the amount owed is huge or you have ignored the aforementioned punishment, you get charged with "felony non-support". Neither is under the disorderly statute.
    That felony would get your CPL revoked regardless of a "disorderly" charge.

    28.425b

    (e) A statement by the applicant regarding whether he or she has ever been convicted in this state or elsewhere for any of the following:

    (i) Any felony.

    (7) The concealed weapon licensing board shall issue a license to an applicant to carry a concealed pistol within the period required under this act after the applicant properly submits an application under subsection (1) and the concealed weapon licensing board determines that all of the following circumstances exist:

    (f) The applicant has never been convicted of a felony in this state or elsewhere, and a felony charge against the applicant is not pending in this state or elsewhere at the time he or she applies for a license described in this section.
    750.165 Refusing to support spouse or child as required by court order; violation as felony; penalty; exception; cash bond; suspension of sentence; bond; "state disbursement unit" or "SDU" defined.
    Sec. 165.

    (1) If the court orders an individual to pay support for the individual's former or current spouse, or for a child of the individual, and the individual does not pay the support in the amount or at the time stated in the order, the individual is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or by a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both.
    That'll still get your CPL revoked.

    So it looks like you can get hit with ciminal non-support which is a felonly and will get your CPL revoked or you might get hit with the lesser charge of "disorderly person" which is a specified 3 yr. misdemeanor and would get your CPL revoked. I can see why a prosecutor wouldn't bother to charge a non-paying parent with "disorderly" when there are other laws they can use to bring a felony charge against a non-paying parent.

    Moral of the story is pay your damn child support.

    ETA: Either way I don't believe they can just arbitrarily revoke your CPL because you haven't paid your child support. I believe you'd have to be charged and convicted of some crime and becoming ineligible for a CPL would be a secondary result of that conviction.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 02-09-2011 at 04:55 AM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  25. #25
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    OT, (h) has been challenged as unconstitutional in some courts I believe. I know that the ACLU has filed suit against some local ordinances for charging people with begging. Royal Oak was one of the towns mentioned. The reason is as long as the person is not a nuisance he has every right to be on a public street and can ask anyone a question including asking for money.


    750.167 “Disorderly person” defined; subsequent violations by person convicted of refusing or neglecting to support family.

    Sec. 167.
    (1) A person is a disorderly person if the person is any of the following:

    (h) A person found begging in a public place.

    (
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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