OC'd a new toy today

BigDave · Feb 9, 2011

Trigger Dr said:
Bad thing for a new shooter as they tend to develop a dependence on the laser instead of learning breathing, trigger control, proper grip etc...
Great tool for one who has mastered the basics.

Being dependent upon a laser I agree is not a good thing, I always bring my front sight up to eye level (not the other way around) and then the back sight, if I see the laser on the target then great.

Lasers still required the same shooting skills as iron sights ie breathing, trigger control and proper grip.

FMCDH · Feb 9, 2011

BigDave said:
Being dependent upon a laser I agree is not a good thing, I always bring my front sight up to eye level (not the other way around) and then the back sight, if I see the laser on the target then great.

Lasers still required the same shooting skills as iron sights ie breathing, trigger control and proper grip.

The one big advantage in SD situations is being able to shoot from odd angles and cover where sight alignment isn't possible, or taking the time to position the body to do so would be impractical.

BigDave · Feb 9, 2011

FMCDH said:
The one big advantage in SD situations is being able to shoot from odd angles and cover where sight alignment isn't possible, or taking the time to position the body to do so would be impractical.

Even with this ability, try shooting from those odd angles when practicing, one will find breathing, grip and trigger control still play a large part and it does become more difficult even though the videos show how easy it is.

The laser has advantages and disadvantages as well, while like you say it can introduce more positions but only good in low light to darkness and in dusty situations the beam can lead back to you, so practice placing your trigger finger high along the side to blank out until needed.

FMCDH · Feb 9, 2011

BigDave said:
Even with this ability, try shooting from those odd angles when practicing, one will find breathing, grip and trigger control still play a large part and it does become more difficult even though the videos show how easy it is.

The laser has advantages and disadvantages as well, while like you say it can introduce more positions but only good in low light to darkness and in dusty situations the beam can lead back to you, so practice placing your trigger finger high along the side to blank out until needed.

O heck ya, those guys in the CTC promo videos have trained to make it look easy. Add a bit of creative editing and one might be lead to believe that the laser can overcome all poor habits and training.

Personally, I do about an 80/20 training split, sights to laser, mostly, shooting quick draw/rapid fire from the hip.

Deleted_User · Feb 9, 2011

BigIrish said:
Im not a expert, but it makes logical pount as far as begining goes. The first hand gun I baught was a 4 inch EAA .357 and had it fitted with Houge w/laser. I went to Wade's and started shooting. A verny nice LEO who was there with his boy came over whwn I was reloading, and looking my target over ( mind you I was brand new to shooting) he gave me some basic pointers and most were things I had read and seen on youtube. He suggested getting "cumffy" with the basics before using the laser. It forced me to create a "musle memmorie" I have now switched from wheel guns to autos for daily carry. When I got my first auto (the FEG that's my avitar) and it being a blowback OS I found myself going back to the first time at the range w/ the nice officer! Just my 2 or 3 pennies.. Oh and I have REALLY been wanting to get that exact PX-4!!! Nice choice brother!

P.S. sorry for run-on sentences....first cup of coffe in progress...

Should I ever get north (I am on vacation 20-28 Feb) I'll let you blow some rounds through it!

Deleted_User · Feb 9, 2011

Ani said:
I must agree on my brother comment. Can anyone recommend something I can put on "the sights" so I can use them. I have a hard time focusing between them.

Do they make larger sights for the Bersa? I just think they're too small for her. Meh, your eye doctor appointment may solve that too honey. Just remember, it's all my fault :banghead:

gogodawgs · Feb 9, 2011

Goose said:
Do they make larger sights for the Bersa? I just think they're too small for her. Meh, your eye doctor appointment may solve that too honey. Just remember, it's all my fault :banghead:

I am not sure that they do. Remember, the smaller the firearm, the smaller the sight radius and the less accurate in general. Smaller guns are for shorter distances. Use it at the range in the 5 yd range or so as it is designed to be more of a point and shoot gun.

And it will take time to adjust to the sights. I recommend starting at 3 yds and then moving to 5 yds.

(I am a former Bersa owner)

Deleted_User · Feb 9, 2011

gogodawgs said:
I am not sure that they do. Remember, the smaller the firearm, the smaller the sight radius and the less accurate in general. Smaller guns are for shorter distances. Use it at the range in the 5 yd range or so as it is designed to be more of a point and shoot gun.

And it will take time to adjust to the sights. I recommend starting at 3 yds and then moving to 5 yds.

(I am a former Bersa owner)

Agreed Nick. Her and I have been discussing her looking into a 9mm once she is comfortable with the bersa. The sights are small. I will move her in. I fire to 25ft, but I will bring her in to 15 to start. Good tip. Thanks

Trigger Dr · Feb 9, 2011

Goose said:
Do they make larger sights for the Bersa? I just think they're too small for her. Meh, your eye doctor appointment may solve that too honey. Just remember, it's all my fault :banghead:

Google HI VIZ sights

heresolong · Feb 9, 2011

Might also look into the Tritium sights. They are very nice and easy to see.

+1 on the short distance shooting. When I was married I would take my wife to the pistol range and we would always move a table up to about ten feet from the targets. (Concrete walls in between rifle and pistol at Custer so no problems with that.) I think the rifle shooters thought we were weird when they would walk by and see us.

BigDave · Feb 9, 2011

At self defense ranges and if one will practice one can acquire center of mass shots by just aiming down the barrel with out using the sights. Give it a try on your next outing.

Self defense ranges are usually referred to as being with in 21 ft or closer, little time to use sights, get front sight up on target or as I stated in this post look down the barrel ( slightly above of course

) and practice trigger and grip control.

At the Firearms Academy I was getting A Zone hits at 50 feet with no more then looking down the barrel and no sights.
If I can you can too.

I feel at these ranges unless one had to make a pin point shot, sights are over rated.

Deleted_User · Feb 9, 2011

BigDave said:
At self defense ranges and if one will practice one can acquire center of mass shots by just aiming down the barrel with out using the sights. Give it a try on your next outing.

Self defense ranges are usually referred to as being with in 21 ft or closer, little time to use sights, get front sight up on target or as I stated in this post look down the barrel ( slightly above of course ) and practice trigger and grip control.

At the Firearms Academy I was getting A Zone hits at 50 feet with no more then looking down the barrel and no sights.
If I can you can too.

I feel at these ranges unless one had to make a pin point shot, sights are over rated.

(~) That is the most USELESS piece of information I've ever read! (~)

I was telling Ani we probably won't have time to aim, sight in, and get well aimed shots. Ruby and Gogodawgs have talked to me before about "point shooting" and these 2 points together may help ani and her bad eye sight!

DISCLAIMER: (~) is the Sarcasm key. Please disreguard the seriousness of anything between the (~)

gogodawgs · Feb 10, 2011

BigDave said:
At self defense ranges and if one will practice one can acquire center of mass shots by just aiming down the barrel with out using the sights. Give it a try on your next outing.

Self defense ranges are usually referred to as being with in 21 ft or closer, little time to use sights, get front sight up on target or as I stated in this post look down the barrel ( slightly above of course ) and practice trigger and grip control.

At the Firearms Academy I was getting A Zone hits at 50 feet with no more then looking down the barrel and no sights.
If I can you can too.

I feel at these ranges unless one had to make a pin point shot, sights are over rated.

Excellently stated.

.45ACPaddy · Feb 10, 2011

If she's having trouble focusing, I suggest the XS Big Dot night sights. Click here: http://www.xssights.com/store/handgun.html

It's a large white dot in the front, and a thinner, vertical line in the rear. The front sight just grabs your focus and helps acquire sight picture quickly. I miss my Glock 19 with XS sights, but I can acquire sight picture just fine with regular run of the mill 3 dot Trijicons.

In my experience, the XS sights helped with sight picture recovery and I could nail a good enough group at 7 yards very quickly. All shots were center mass. But shooting at a bull's eye target, I could only get a 3 or 4 inch group at that distance. With 3 dot sights, I can still get all shots center mass quickly, though it took some practice, and can get a 2 to 2.5 inch group at 7 yards.

In the end, though, regardless of what kind of sights, lasers, flashlights, heat seeking incendiary bullets (<< Clicky!), etc. it all boils down to practice. The bells and whistles certainly help, but a seasoned shooter with no sights could still outshoot a novice who uses lasers. I do suggest those XS sights for Ani, if they make them for the Bersa.

skiingislife725 · Feb 10, 2011

If it's an actual problem where your eyes are not focusing like they did in your teens, a good option (prob won't work on a Bersa though) is a mini reflex sight. Kelly McCann (Crucible Securities/nationally known combatives instructor) and David Bowie (Bowie Tactical Concepts) have had them on their guns for almost a decade...I believe Kelly put it on his specifically because of his eyes not being 100% anymore. And now FN makes a gun already designed for them and Gabe Suarez is a huge advocate for it as well, even has a forum specifically about it. http://www.warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?205-Red-Dot-Sighted-Pistols

"If you want to get better with iron sights shoot a dot gun for a year."
USPSA President and Grand Master Mike Voigt

Anyways, just a suggestion. As they say, once you go...uh, to a dot, you never go back. And there's no way I would.

amlevin · Feb 10, 2011

BigDave said:
Self defense ranges are usually referred to as being with in 21 ft or closer, little time to use sights, get front sight up on target or as I stated in this post look down the barrel ( slightly above of course ) and practice trigger and grip control.

Simply put, if you take time to use the sights in a self defense situation you stand a big risk of loosing.

FMCDH · Feb 10, 2011

amlevin said:
Simply put, if you take time to use the sights in a self defense situation you stand a big risk of loosing.

+1

You can pretty much bet that any "bad guy with gun" you are being attacked by, will just be spraying and praying. Being concerned about their "backstop" they are likely not.

Trigger Dr · Feb 10, 2011

FMCDH said:
+1

You can pretty much bet that any "bad guy with gun" you are being attacked by, will just be spraying and praying. Being concerned about their "backstop" they are likely not.

WHAT?????? That will get you DEAD!!!!!
I certainly would NOT think that. I would think that the bad guy was an expert, trying to kill me, and respond in full force.

amlevin · Feb 10, 2011

Trigger Dr said:
WHAT?????? That will get you DEAD!!!!!
I certainly would NOT think that. I would think that the bad guy was an expert, trying to kill me, and respond in full force.

Let's not forget that the gunman in the recent Port Orchard shooting was shooting while running away and still able to take down two deputies. I agree that the assumption should be they are experts and respond in kind.

Here is a pic showing the "modified Harries" which is a "below line of sight" method.

The time taken to bring your firearm up to gain a full "sight picture" may be just enough time for the other guy to get off a "kill shot". In this technique you only use the front sight as a reference. It may appear in your field of vision as if it was pointed at the targets crotch but the point of impact will be Center of Mass. It takes practice but it's worth doing.

FMCDH · Feb 11, 2011

Trigger Dr said:
WHAT?????? That will get you DEAD!!!!!
I certainly would NOT think that. I would think that the bad guy was an expert, trying to kill me, and respond in full force.

amlevin said:
Let's not forget that the gunman in the recent Port Orchard shooting was shooting while running away and still able to take down two deputies. I agree that the assumption should be they are experts and respond in kind.

<SNIP>

The time taken to bring your firearm up to gain a full "sight picture" may be just enough time for the other guy to get off a "kill shot". In this technique you only use the front sight as a reference. It may appear in your field of vision as if it was pointed at the targets crotch but the point of impact will be Center of Mass. It takes practice but it's worth doing.

Umm...yeaaa...I think you both mis-interpreted my post as a dismissal of danger, for...whatever reason.

The point was that most "bad guys" probably wont give a crap about their backstop, so they don't have the same restraints of accuracy that we may place in our own shooting styles, thereby not having to worry about missing as much, thereby being willing to pump more rounds at you.

Must of us want each and every round to count and be on target. I don't think your average thug on the street is so concerned with those considerations, but that doesn't make him/her less dangerous.

OC'd a new toy today

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