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Thread: Sorry State of Education of Sheriff Deputies

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    Sorry State of Education of Sheriff Deputies

    this evening i asked two pierce county sheriff deputies if a citys ban on carring in a stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, does not apply to some one licenced under RCW 9.41.070. does that apply to open carry as well if the person is licenced under RCW 9.41.070?

    this is what i was told by both officers " that state laws supperced fed. laws, county laws and ordences supperced state laws, and city laws and ordences supperced all of the above." i asked for them to clarify this statement i was told that if a city has a ordence banning firearms and i was caught carring with my ccl i would go to jail.

    am i the only one asking what the hell is the schooling that every cop has to complete for if it is so lacking in the basic structure of our legal system that two (2) separate deputies that have eleven years on the job dont know the first thing about the hierarchy of our state legal system.

  2. #2
    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    And that is why they are not lawyers.


    Been harassed by the police? Yelled at by the anti-gun neighbors? Mother doesn't approve?

    Then this is the place for you! Click here to get back at them!

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    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    This is why, whether you are right or wrong, lawful or unlawful in your behavior, they will simply take a wild guess at the law and arrest you anyway if they don't like it, and let a judge sort it out.

    Enjoy your night in jail for doing nothing unlawful!

    The problem is that there are no repercussions for the LEOs if their guess is wrong.

    (If there actually were, they'd likely be a Hell of a lot more knowledgeable, because they would be putting THEIR butt on the line, not yours.)

    Enjoy!
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

    • • • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Faciémus!• • •

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    research, ohare v alamagordo.
    briefly detained, for OPEN carrying!
    42 usc 1983 action for 20 minute detainment.
    21,000 dollars, settled out of court.
    the COPs had to pay!!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    research, ohare v alamagordo.
    briefly detained, for OPEN carrying!
    42 usc 1983 action for 20 minute detainment.
    21,000 dollars, settled out of court.
    the COPs had to pay!!
    It CAN be done if one has the money and time to do it, but...
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

    • • • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Faciémus!• • •

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    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
    It CAN be done if one has the money and time to do it, but...
    Sounds like your giving up a little too easy. Sometimes we must sacrifice for our rights just as our rights sacrifice for us
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

  7. #7
    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    Sounds like your giving up a little too easy. Sometimes we must sacrifice for our rights just as our rights sacrifice for us
    By golly, thank you so very much for volunteering to supplement my Social Security if I need a few thousand extra to pursue some legal action.

    I did my sacrifices at war, and fought my battles since as best I could. Those things I am able to fight I continue to fight, but at some point one MUST recognize that a battle is beyond one's reach.

    Take care!
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

    • • • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Faciémus!• • •

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
    By golly, thank you so very much for volunteering to supplement my Social Security if I need a few thousand extra to pursue some legal action.

    I did my sacrifices at war, and fought my battles since as best I could. Those things I am able to fight I continue to fight, but at some point one MUST recognize that a battle is beyond one's reach.

    Take care!
    The key it be absolutely right in your actions. That means have the law totally on your side and not muddy things up with one's mouth while dealing with the officers. IF they arrest and jail you wrongly, you may well have lawyers burning up your phone to represent you on contingency.

    I said IF they arrest you. In a lot of incidents like this many officers are merely employing intimidation and are banking on the fact that you will yield before they have to book you. Arrests like this are often the result of a conference with a supervisor at the scene, more conversations with "upper management" prior to booking, and then there is the Prosecutor who has final say on whether charges are filed.

    If I am going about my business and am TOTALLY Legal then I would take it to the max. Remember, the toughest problem is to keep one's mouth under control so that the only ones in the wrong are the officers that don't seem to know the law.

    on the OP--
    One thing to keep in mind about Stadiums and Convention Centers, the "Lessee" can establish their own rules. They don't have the weight of law but can get you excluded from the premises. Failure to leave will then be a trespass situation and that could get you arrested.

    For the deputies, they all seem to get tangled in their underwear over State Preemption. What they say is often the case for other laws/ordnances but the State clearly preempted the regulation of firearms.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  9. #9
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Yep, there are consequences though not the kind many of would like to see. But it is difficult to fight the "system" that has huge resources to defend their unlawful "law enforcement officers".

    I would like to see officers lose their jobs for enforcing their "viewpoints". We simply don't need them on our dime.

    Wish I was more mobile I'd go visit my brother in that area and OC into the station and ask for a complaint form.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    <SNIP>
    For the deputies, they all seem to get tangled in their underwear over State Preemption. What they say is often the case for other laws/ordnances but the State clearly preempted the regulation of firearms.
    Many are also transferees from other states where firearms laws are loosely or not at all preempted, such as California. Then there are states such as Illinois that have a sort of "reverse" preemption that specifically allows more, but no less, stringent regulation then at the state level. Most transferee officers in my experience never take the time to learn Washington laws on the matter and rely on their past knowledge or locker room rumors.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    LEOs are allowed to lie to their 'victims/suspects' and because of that they feel entitled to lie whenever they wish in other areas, and feel no compunction to be truthful, even when they are called into court to testify, apparently.

  12. #12
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    They often rely on the often misapplied "qualified immunity" for protection. If you don't know or are not sure the leeway needs to go to the "civilian".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  13. #13
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    Most transferee officers in my experience never take the time to learn Washington laws on the matter and rely on their past knowledge or locker room rumors.
    Let's not overlook the FTO's that indoctrinate the "new arrivals" into the local "culture". By "culture" I don't mean the best restaurants or clubs, I mean the department "culture" of what they "allow" the citizens in their jurisdiction to get away with. Remember that at one time the "culture" of the SPD was to "prone out and disarm" anyone audacious enough to OC in "Their City".
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Let's not overlook the FTO's that indoctrinate the "new arrivals" into the local "culture". By "culture" I don't mean the best restaurants or clubs, I mean the department "culture" of what they "allow" the citizens in their jurisdiction to get away with. Remember that at one time the "culture" of the SPD was to "prone out and disarm" anyone audacious enough to OC in "Their City".
    Very true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    Many are also transferees from other states where firearms laws are loosely or not at all preempted, such as California.
    CA's preemption is the same as Oregon's. The only difference is how hard CA makes obtaining a CCW.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    CA's preemption is the same as Oregon's. The only difference is how hard CA makes obtaining a CCW.
    You sure about that?

    Oregon (Too large to post)
    http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/166.html
    Starting at - ORS 166.170 State Preemption.

    California (This is all that is known by handgunlaw.us)
    http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/wa...ction=retrieve
    Starting at - California Government Code 53071
    53071. It is the intention of the Legislature to occupy the whole
    field of regulation of the registration or licensing of commercially
    manufactured firearms as encompassed by the provisions of the Penal
    Code, and such provisions shall be exclusive of all local
    regulations, relating to registration or licensing of commercially
    manufactured firearms, by any political subdivision as defined in
    Section 1721 of the Labor Code.



    53071.5. By the enforcement of this section, the Legislature
    occupies the whole field of regulation of the manufacture, sale, or
    possession of imitation firearms, as defined in Section 12550 of the
    Penal Code, and that section shall preempt and be exclusive of all
    regulations relating to the manufacture, sale, or possession of
    imitation firearms, including regulations governing the manufacture,
    sale, or possession of BB devices and air rifles described in
    subdivision (g) of Section 12001 of the Penal Code.



    53071.5. By the enforcement of this section, the Legislature
    occupies the whole field of regulation of the manufacture, sale, or
    possession of imitation firearms, as defined in subdivision (a) of
    Section 16700 of the Penal Code, and that section shall preempt and
    be exclusive of all regulations relating to the manufacture, sale, or
    possession of imitation firearms, including regulations governing
    the manufacture, sale, or possession of BB devices and air rifles
    described in Section 16250 of the Penal Code.

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    SNIP...(2) separate deputies that have eleven years on the job dont know the first thing about the hierarchy of our state legal system.
    Are you taken this to the hierarchy of the department in order to establish if this was a miss-directed statement by two uninformed deputies, or sanctioned policy and beliefs from the top ranks of that department.

  18. #18
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Well to me we are on the top of the hierarchy and LEO are pretty far down the list of Government authority.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  19. #19
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Let's not overlook the FTO's that indoctrinate the "new arrivals" into the local "culture". By "culture" I don't mean the best restaurants or clubs, I mean the department "culture" of what they "allow" the citizens in their jurisdiction to get away with. Remember that at one time the "culture" of the SPD was to "prone out and disarm" anyone audacious enough to OC in "Their City".
    Others state that since police come from the dominate American society (culture) that police are not a seperate culture, but rather they are a "subculture" of American society.

  20. #20
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    Others state that since police come from the dominate American society (culture) that police are not a seperate culture, but rather they are a "subculture" of American society.
    Perhaps that was true "once upon a time". Over the last couple of decades there has been a definite separation of cultures. Far too many of the "police culture" believe that it is "Us" against "Them" (meaning the rest of society). Listen (and read on various forums) to what they think of people like us who exercise their right to carry a firearm. If they truly were a "subculture" of American Society they would be just as outraged over the denial or infringement on our rights. Most don't care because they have "special protections". Almost every law that denies us the right to carry a firearm has a corresponding clause that essentially says "Except Police".

    Another example would be HR-218 that allows police officers, active and retired, to carry firearms even in States where the residents are either prohibited or severely restricted, on or off duty, working or just on vacation. Can you do that? In essence, HR-218 is a Nationwide CPL and more than one officer I have spoken to laughs about how they get special privilege.

    Go to a range sometime when there is a group of Police Officers shooting. They don't want to mingle with the "common folk".

    This is not universal but it occurs enough where there is the feeling given that they do feel they are part of a special culture. Why is it that there are huge memorials when one of "theirs" is killed but when someone wrongfully dies at their hands everyone forgets after 4-5 "news cycles"? If someone kills one of "theirs" they immediately band together to find the truth. When a "woodcarver" is shot by one of them the first words spoken by their "spokesperson" is to place blame on the victim.

    So much for their culture being a subculture of society.

    Hopefully this is not taken as a "bashing" post because there are those in their "culture" that don't feel this way. It would be nice to see them become the Vocal Majority rather than remain in the background as they seem to be doing. Wouldn't it be refreshing, for a change, to see police officers come out and say that one of their fellow officers screwed up rather than forming a wall of silence? Unfortunately, the last one that did that locally was vilified by his fellow officers for challenging Troy Meade's shooting of a drunk who's car was high-centered on a concrete curbing and jambed against a fence.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    Are you taken this to the hierarchy of the department in order to establish if this was a miss-directed statement by two uninformed deputies, or sanctioned policy and beliefs from the top ranks of that department.
    Remember who is at the top of that chain. He is the same, if memory serves correct, that told Brewster that his officers acted appropriately in Starbucks.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Tried that

    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    Are you taken this to the hierarchy of the department in order to establish if this was a miss-directed statement by two uninformed deputies, or sanctioned policy and beliefs from the top ranks of that department.


    tried to call and talk to the sheriff three times. all three times was given over to his ade's phone and left mesage with ph# and have not gotten a call back.

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    Some misinformation in this thread.

    Many are also transferees from other states where firearms laws are loosely or not at all preempted, such as California. Then there are states such as Illinois that have a sort of "reverse" preemption that specifically allows more, but no less, stringent regulation then at the state level.
    Almost all laterals are from in-state. Few from out of state..
    Most transferee officers in my experience never take the time to learn Washington laws on the matter and rely on their past knowledge or locker room rumors.
    Utter and pure BS! Laterals coming in from out of state are far more conscientious than rookies from the academy in learning our state laws and local ordinances.
    Let's not overlook the FTO's that indoctrinate the "new arrivals" into the local "culture". By "culture" I don't mean the best restaurants or clubs, I mean the department "culture" of what they "allow" the citizens in their jurisdiction to get away with.
    Really? What secret knowledge of the inner workings of our local departments do you base that ridiculous comment on?
    LEOs are allowed to lie to their 'victims/suspects' and because of that they feel entitled to lie whenever they wish in other areas, and feel no compunction to be truthful, even when they are called into court to testify, apparently.
    Oh, good grief. So how many times have YOU been in court and listened to LEOs lying in their sworn testimony? Please document.

    Go to a range sometime when there is a group of Police Officers shooting. They don't want to mingle with the "common folk".
    Um, perhaps that's simply because they're busy having to qualify? I don't recall having been at any local range with a "group of Police Officers" when other citizens were present; however, I can tell you that if one or two cops are out on a range and citizens are present, they general like to mingle with other shooters ... Please respond and let me know at which range in the greater Puget Sound area you have observed this phenomenom you speak of.

  24. #24
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo View Post
    Really? What secret knowledge of the inner workings of our local departments do you base that ridiculous comment on?
    Actual conversations with officers who laughed about the practice. Maybe not in YOUR department but several in Snohomish County as well as a couple from No. King County.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo View Post
    Um, perhaps that's simply because they're busy having to qualify? I don't recall having been at any local range with a "group of Police Officers" when other citizens were present; however, I can tell you that if one or two cops are out on a range and citizens are present, they general like to mingle with other shooters ... Please respond and let me know at which range in the greater Puget Sound area you have observed this phenomenom you speak of.
    Norpoint and Sams are a couple of those ranges. Was shooting at Norpoint one day and the East bay was full. Two officers were in the center bay and we were all told by the range master that "they didn't want any civilians in with them". They were just playing around with a variety of their personal weapons. This was double irritating because the West bay was reserved for Police Officers only and the windows all taped over with paper so nobody could look in and observe.

    Sams has one bay totally reserved for LEO's.

    Yes, some are friendly as was the Seattle SWAT Team while they were shooting recently at Kenmore. Yes, they were qualifying but they merely asked the members of the range that were shooting if they wanted to go down range and change targets as they would be shooting continuously for about 20 minutes.

    Not so friendly groups I have encountered: Lake Stevens, Lake Forest Park, Snohomish County SO. Most friendly, most Fed's, Tribal Officers, Monroe, and UW PD. These encounters were those "one or two" officers, not qual sessions.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo View Post
    Some misinformation in this thread.


    Almost all laterals are from in-state. Few from out of state..

    Utter and pure BS! Laterals coming in from out of state are far more conscientious than rookies from the academy in learning our state laws and local ordinances.
    Really?

    I have a friend who recruits for the academy and most of his recruits are from out of state, and from his home state.

    Oh, good grief. So how many times have YOU been in court and listened to LEOs lying in their sworn testimony? Please document.

    Lot's. Very few police reports I have read have not had mis-truths, misleading information and out right lies. But again you didn't read and comprehend what he said correctly. Maybe this is the main problem you LEO's need to pay better attention. What he was talking about was you are allowed to LIE in the course of your investigation.

    http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/181241.pdf
    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/349169_lying29.html
    http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/spinc...-cops-who-lie/
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...57_spd30m.html
    http://www.popehat.com/2009/02/12/a-...-wooden-story/

    This was with a quick search, undoubtedly there are much much more.


    Um, perhaps that's simply because they're busy having to qualify? I don't recall having been at any local range with a "group of Police Officers" when other citizens were present; however, I can tell you that if one or two cops are out on a range and citizens are present, they general like to mingle with other shooters ... Please respond and let me know at which range in the greater Puget Sound area you have observed this phenomenom you speak of.

    At the pit we go too the local SWAT tried to get a group of us to leave, since they were practicing "manuevers", we said no we'll shoot over on this side have fun. One guy was cool enough to come talk to us and let us see them shoot some explosives can't remember the name of the stuff but that was cool. Notice how I highlighted one or two? But Amlevin was talking about a group.
    Be more open minded and help the citizens fight against what is a problem, be the better cop, stop defending and help.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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