Concealed Carry In Kentucky Without A License

Liberty4Ever said:

One of the bills that's probably going nowhere is a repeal of the legislation that greatly expanded the time the legislature is in session. There is a strong movement coalescing behind the increasingly popular opinion that the Kentucky Legislature is at best a waste of time, and at worst, a lot of money being spent to make the lives of Kentuckians worse, by taking away our liberty and charging us a lot of money that we don't have for this service.

No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session.
--- Mark Twain

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Where are things standing as far as you've heard, Liberty? How about HB380? Const. Carry? Anything good to report?

HB 380 would be great. I think the intention is to pass it to give some relief to Kentucky's coal industry. The urrent administration in DC has openly stated that their goal is to shut down the coal industry. They sound like someone running for city council who promises to shut down prostitution in the red light district. They're invoking some sort of moral authority. Coal is dirty. It's a sin. HB 380 would make ANYTHING made and sold in Kentucky immune from federal regulation. It seems to be modeled directly after the Kentucky Firearms Freedom Act, but the KFFA specifically applied to firearms, and the House Democrats got word of this, declared it to be a Republican bill (or worse, a TEA Party bill) and they shut it down last year and pretty well ignored it this year too. But HB 380 doesn't mention firearms, or coal, or sorghum, or any other specific product. It just makes the case that makes sense. Intrastate commerce isn't interstate commerce and it's none of the federal government's business. The bill was introduced by an eastern coal county representative who is a Democrat and it has broad support form Democrats. If we can push really hard and get Republicans to jump on board instead of blocking it because it's a Democratic bill, then we could get it passed and it would be the KFFA applied to all products!

SB33 (the KFFA) and HB113 (the concealed carry without a license, aka "constitutional carry") both seem to be going nowhere in this short session. There isn't much time left. The Frankfort weasels seem to pass whatever they want whenever they can get around partisan gridlock, which is the only thing keeping us from drowning in a sea of bad laws as far as I can determine. They play politics with these bills, offering support on the bills to garner support (votes and campaign contributions) from us, without ever intending to pass the bills. Why should they? They can support them again next year and get more support from us.

The fact is, unless we can marshal thousands of calls to our legislators, they'll largely ignore us and do whatever they want. I see the apathy when I have a gun rights table at gun shows. Probably 95% of the people are there to look at guns and don't care enough about gun rights to make a phone call. They buy guns and ammo and hope the politicians don't take them away. We've largely abdicated our birthright and don't deserve liberty. With an attitude like that, we deserve whatever the politicians do to us. Lick the boots of your lords and masters.

On the plus side, there is one gun bill that is gaining traction.

SUPPORT HB 313: INCREASE CONCEALED CARRY RIGHTS WITHOUT A LICENSE

This bill will allow Fish & Wildlife officers to concealed carry as well as let citizens carry concealed in a car in the console between the seats, or any enclosure installed as original equipment by the manufacturer, without a concealed carry license. Currently, the law allows a firearm to be carried in the glove box ONLY. Any other concealed location inside a car requires a concealed carry license. This bill has good sponsorship and a good chance of passing.

Call the Legislative Message line in Frankfort: 1-800-372-7181

Tell the operator: "I would like to leave a message for my senator and all Senate Leadership. Please protect our second amendment rights, pass HB 313"

Looks like our senate is going to tie HB-313 up in red tape. They only have a couple days left and they have sent it to judiciary. Maybe they will prove me wrong, but I doubt it.

We have friends in the Senate Judiciary Committee. The House Elections Committee, on the other hand, is where good bills like the Kentucky Firearms Freedom Act go to die.

Time is short. Passing anything good is a long shot.

I wish we could come together around one good pro-gun bill a year and stay on that one until it's passed, and then do another one next year, until we get back our gun rights. We have WAY too little pro-gun support to spread our support among a bunch of bills every year.

UPDATE:

HB313 passed the house 90-3 and is now heading to the Senate. Call now!

Call the Legislative Message line in Frankfort: 1-800-372-7181

Tell the operator: "I would like to leave a message for my senator and all Senate Leadership. Please protect our second amendment rights, pass HB 313"

From the Kentucky Legislative Research Commission Website (News section):

12:07 p.m.

Gun rights bill passes 90-3 in House

A 2nd amendment rights bill that would allow firearms or other deadly weapons to be kept in any closed compartment original to the vehicle has passed the Kentucky House.

House Bill 313, sponsored by Rep. Will Coursey, D-Benton, was approved by a 90-3 vote and now goes to the Senate for consideration.

Coursey cited a 2006 Kentucky Supreme Court that disqualified a vehicle’s console as a legal storage space for concealed deadly weapons as a reason for the bill. The ruling, he said, requires weapons to now be stored in one place—a vehicle’s glove compartment.

“There are a number of automobiles today that don’t even have a glove compartment,” Coursey told the House.

The measure would also allow state Fish and Wildlife department conservation officers and specific Fish and Wildlife administrators to carry concealed deadly weapons on the job.

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This is how HB 313 sits right now with little time left for the senate to do anything.

This is taken from Bill Tracker:

Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - to Judiciary (S)

Monday, February 28, 2011 - returned to Committee on Committees (S)

Monday, February 28, 2011 - 1st reading

Monday, February 28, 2011 - taken from Committee on Committees (S)

Monday, February 28, 2011 - received in Senate

Friday, February 25, 2011 - 3rd reading, passed 90-3

Thursday, February 24, 2011 - posted for passage in the Regular Orders of the Day for Friday, February 25, 2011

Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 2nd reading, to Rules

Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - reported favorably, 1st reading, to Calendar

Monday, February 07, 2011 - posted in committee

Thursday, February 03, 2011 - to Judiciary (H)

Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - introduced in House

HB 313 has passed and has been sent to the Governor for his signature. This law will enable citizens to have firearms in their vehicle in either the glove box or center console, starting 90 days after the Governor signs the bill into law.

I was unable to be in Frankfort, but I have a couple of liberty friends who did a great job testifying for this bill, and many other liberty friends who made the calls and used their personal influence with their elected representative to lobby for this bill.

The members of OpenCarry.org are among the most politically active gun owners, but sadly, most gun owners are very passive about their rights. They sit back and wait, expecting their rights to be taken away, and they are! From what I've seen, the liberty community does a better job advocating for gun rights than the much larger community of gun owners and enthusiasts. Any idea how to get more gun owners off the bench and into the game?

Thanks to all of you who made the calls and got 'er done!

To all of the rest... YOU'RE WELCOME!

Here's the full text of HB 313 if you'd like to read it for yourself. There is other stuff in there related to law enforcement officers carrying concealed deadly weapons, too.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/record/11RS/HB313/bill.doc

You might want to print a copy to carry with you if you plan on being among the first to exercise your new ability to legally carry a pistol in the console between the seats without a CCDW license. The police can't be expected to know all these laws, particularly the ones that recently changed.

After taking the CCDW class, my brother remembered Kentucky's odd exemption that allowed glove compartments not to be considered concealed carry. He mentioned this to his friend, who had been a Kentucky State Police officer. His friend was sure the glove compartment constituted concealed carry, and finally called his friend who was still working at the KSP post, and he learned that my brother was right. There are certainly active duty police officers who still don't know that the glove compartment is not considered to be concealed carry. It's unlikely that they'll get the word that a pistol in the center console is no longer concealed carry, nor is the overhead storage area console, nor storage compartments on the doors, etc.

gutshot said:

My reading of this bill leads me to believe that under the seat is still illegal without a CCDW.

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I'd agree.

Here's the actual language, which I included in my email updates, but hadn't included in the above posts.

A loaded or unloaded firearm or other deadly weapon shall not be deemed concealed on or about the person if it is located in any enclosed container, compartment, or storage space regularly installed as original equipment in a motor vehicle by its manufacturer, including but not limited to a glove compartment, center console, or seat pocket, regardless of whether said enclosed container, storage space, or compartment is locked, unlocked, or does not have a locking mechanism. No person or organization, public or private, shall prohibit a person from keeping a loaded or unloaded firearm or ammunition, or both, or other deadly weapon in a vehicle in accordance with the provisions of this subsection. Any attempt by a person or organization, public or private, to violate the provisions of this subsection may be the subject of an action for appropriate relief or for damages in a Circuit Court or District Court of competent jurisdiction. This subsection shall not apply to any person prohibited from possessing a firearm pursuant to KRS 527.040.

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Unless you can convince someone that under the seat is a "storage space", you'd be out of luck.

Note that many large pickup trucks have factory installed drawers or enclosed compartments under the front seats, and I'm confident they'd be covered under the new law.

Liberty4Ever said:

The members of OpenCarry.org are among the most politically active gun owners, but sadly, most gun owners are very passive about their rights. They sit back and wait, expecting their rights to be taken away, and they are! From what I've seen, the liberty community does a better job advocating for gun rights than the much larger community of gun owners and enthusiasts. Any idea how to get more gun owners off the bench and into the game?

Thanks to all of you who made the calls and got 'er done!

To all of the rest... YOU'RE WELCOME!

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No problem Liberty, after all it is my duty as a believer in our Constitution to do so is it not?

Well I've began the habit of posting legislative alerts on Kentucky Classifieds in the Guns section, which is an excellent way to get the message out to regular/non activist gun owners. They always get plenty of views, so I'd like to think that many of them actually make the calls and send the emails, when something is brought to their direct attention.

I also make calls to family and send out emails to another 2A supporter who is a close friend of mine. He doesn't keep his "ear to the ground" like I do, but he knows quite a few people that he networks the info to. I also post on my OC group on Facebook which consists of 200 members, as of this posting. I'd like to think I do what I can to further our cause.

This was a small victory, but a victory nonetheless. Good job everyone.

UnfetteredMight said:

This was a small victory, but a victory nonetheless.

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Any year they don't take away any more of our right to keep and bear arms is a win, and the small victories like this are icing on the cake, IMO.

Thank you UnfetteredMight for all you're doing! I didn't even know there was a classified section. I don't want to be a downer. Please, keep doing all you're doing. I don't know if posts in the classifieds are going to result in much education, and I'd be pleasantly surprised if they generate a call, based on my experience advocating for gun rights at many gun shows, and seeing the vast majority of people who are only interested in the pretty toys and seem perfectly willing to passively wait for all of their toys to be taken away. Sorry, but I'm getting jaded. I've cut way back on gun shows. I did 13 last year solely to advocate for gun rights and pro-gun candidates, and I've only done one this year. I'm trying to put my limited time & money where it'll do the most good... and I'm trying not to do things that demotivate me. Emailing pro-gun friends and making it as simple as possible to get involved and guilting them a little is probably the most effective thing we can do. Good job on that! On the plus side, people are so apathetic about all legislation that even a small percentage of gun owners making the call is a relatively significant public response.

Keep up the good work, everybody!

Say, would anybody be interested in an email list specifically for gun rights alerts? The legislative session is winding down, so this would be for January to April of next year. Probably 6-8 times in those four months, there would be a gun rights email alert. It'd look a lot like the message earlier in this thread. It'd have the LRC toll free message line number, and a quick message to leave on a gun rights issue. For advanced gun rights activists, there might be some optional extra credit work to directly call or email your legislator. This would be only for gun rights issues in the Kentucky Legislature. No save the bees, save the trees, save the whales, or save the snails. Whadya think?

Liberty4Ever said:

Any year they don't take away any more of our right to keep and bear arms is a win, and the small victories like this are icing on the cake, IMO.

Thank you UnfetteredMight for all you're doing! I didn't even know there was a classified section. I don't want to be a downer. Please, keep doing all you're doing. I don't know if posts in the classifieds are going to result in much education, and I'd be pleasantly surprised if they generate a call, based on my experience advocating for gun rights at many gun shows, and seeing the vast majority of people who are only interested in the pretty toys and seem perfectly willing to passively wait for all of their toys to be taken away. Sorry, but I'm getting jaded. I've cut way back on gun shows. I did 13 last year solely to advocate for gun rights and pro-gun candidates, and I've only done one this year. I'm trying to put my limited time & money where it'll do the most good... and I'm trying not to do things that demotivate me. Emailing pro-gun friends and making it as simple as possible to get involved and guilting them a little is probably the most effective thing we can do. Good job on that! On the plus side, people are so apathetic about all legislation that even a small percentage of gun owners making the call is a relatively significant public response.

Keep up the good work, everybody!

Say, would anybody be interested in an email list specifically for gun rights alerts? The legislative session is winding down, so this would be for January to April of next year. Probably 6-8 times in those four months, there would be a gun rights email alert. It'd look a lot like the message earlier in this thread. It'd have the LRC toll free message line number, and a quick message to leave on a gun rights issue. For advanced gun rights activists, there might be some optional extra credit work to directly call or email your legislator. This would be only for gun rights issues in the Kentucky Legislature. No save the bees, save the trees, save the whales, or save the snails. Whadya think?

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I wish I could do more honestly, but it's hard to be really active being a single father with little ones.

As for the email list, I'm game.

gutshot said:

How did the subject of this thread get switched from HB 113 to HB 313?

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I dunno, I tried to start a different thread lol.

In my vehicle a 2005 Suzuki Forenza there IS a drawer/storage compatment under the passenger seat (which is probably a worse place to carry than the glovebox). In this case I think I would be within the law. But if I read it correctly whereever this compartment is HAS to be enclosed correct? Therefore carry within the door pocket would be illegal (unless somehow your's is enclosed).

bj1919 said:

In my vehicle a 2005 Suzuki Forenza there IS a drawer/storage compatment under the passenger seat (which is probably a worse place to carry than the glovebox). In this case I think I would be within the law. But if I read it correctly whereever this compartment is HAS to be enclosed correct? Therefore carry within the door pocket would be illegal (unless somehow your's is enclosed).

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That would be incorrect. There is no provision for a closed compartment. Just a compartment installed by the manufacturer. If you look, you will see that the law speaks of a "seat pocket". There would not be a lid on a seat pocket.

hotrod said:

That would be incorrect. There is no provision for a closed compartment. Just a compartment installed by the manufacturer. If you look, you will see that the law speaks of a "seat pocket". There would not be a lid on a seat pocket.

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Well, you're partially correct, it does mention an "enclosed container" (See section 8). Being that a "seat pocket" would generally have some form of velcro or elastic at the top, it would seemingly be considered to be "enclosed" technically. As for the "door pockets" that are generally hard plastic and are not enclosed, they would, according to this, be therefore illegal and the individual, if NOT having a CCDW, would, according to this, be in voilation and considered to be illegally concealing a weapon which is a Class A misdemeanor unless the individual is a convicted felony (See section 9).

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(8) A loaded or unloaded firearm or other deadly weapon shall not be deemed concealed on or about the person if it is located in any enclosed container,[a glove] compartment, or storage space[regularly] installed as original equipment in a motor vehicle by its manufacturer, including but not limited to a glove compartment, center console, or seat pocket, regardless of whether said enclosed container, storage space, or compartment is locked, unlocked, or does not have a locking mechanism. No person or organization, public or private, shall prohibit a person from keeping a loaded or unloaded firearm or ammunition, or both, or other deadly weapon in a[ glove compartment of a] vehicle in accordance with the provisions of this subsection. Any attempt by a person or organization, public or private, to violate the provisions of this subsection may be the subject of an action for appropriate relief or for damages in a Circuit Court or District Court of competent jurisdiction. This subsection shall not apply to any person prohibited from possessing a firearm pursuant to KRS 527.040.
(9) Carrying a concealed weapon is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the defendant has been previously convicted of a felony in which a deadly weapon was possessed, used, or displayed, in which case it is a Class D felony.

Source: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/record/11RS/HB313/bill.doc

Plain English

neuroblades said:

Well, you're partially correct, it does mention an "enclosed container" (See section 8). Being that a "seat pocket" would generally have some form of velcro or elastic at the top, it would seemingly be considered to be "enclosed" technically. As for the "door pockets" that are generally hard plastic and are not enclosed, they would, according to this, be therefore illegal and the individual, if NOT having a CCDW, would, according to this, be in voilation and considered to be illegally concealing a weapon which is a Class A misdemeanor unless the individual is a convicted felony (See section 9).

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(8) A loaded or unloaded firearm or other deadly weapon shall not be deemed concealed on or about the person if it is located in any enclosed container,[a glove] compartment, or storage space[regularly] installed as original equipment in a motor vehicle by its manufacturer, including but not limited to a glove compartment, center console, or seat pocket, regardless of whether said enclosed container, storage space, or compartment is locked, unlocked, or does not have a locking mechanism. No person or organization, public or private, shall prohibit a person from keeping a loaded or unloaded firearm or ammunition, or both, or other deadly weapon in a[ glove compartment of a] vehicle in accordance with the provisions of this subsection. Any attempt by a person or organization, public or private, to violate the provisions of this subsection may be the subject of an action for appropriate relief or for damages in a Circuit Court or District Court of competent jurisdiction. This subsection shall not apply to any person prohibited from possessing a firearm pursuant to KRS 527.040.
(9) Carrying a concealed weapon is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the defendant has been previously convicted of a felony in which a deadly weapon was possessed, used, or displayed, in which case it is a Class D felony.

Source: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/record/11RS/HB313/bill.doc

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The rules of the English language dictate that ANY compartment that was installed by the manufacturer are now okay. Notice how "enclosed container " is seperated from compartment by a comma. By placing the comma in between container and compartment the rules of sentence structure add another subject to the sentence.
Also note that we are no longer limited to glove compartments by the use of " but not limited to" . Hell, from what I see We are not even obliged to have the gun in plain view any longer.
This is a very well written statute and a clear victory for Liberty!

Thos.Jefferson said:

The rules of the English language dictate that ANY compartment that was installed by the manufacturer are now okay. Notice how "enclosed container " is seperated from compartment by a comma. By placing the comma in between container and compartment the rules of sentence structure add another subject to the sentence.
Also note that we are no longer limited to glove compartments by the use of " but not limited to" . Hell, from what I see We are not even obliged to have the gun in plain view any longer.
This is a very well written statute and a clear victory for Liberty!

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Thank you Tom, the word container suggest no top or closure, as long as it is a regularly installed in the vehicle by the manufacturer. Accordingly, you can just about put your handgun anywhere, but under the seat without a CDWL.

Symantics

Concider this sentence " I love the taste of red apples, cantalopes, peaches and pears. Would you say all of the fruits mentioned are red? To use your analogy wold be absurd , would it not? It all boils down to how a "reasonable" man would interpret the language of the statute.

Enclosed containers, glove compartments, storage spaces and seat pockets are all different things else they wouldn't have named them all. The fact that seat pockets are simple pieces of cloth sewn onto the seat with no possible way of being "enclosed" ( I guess they could put a zipper on it but I've yet to see one like that) makes me, a reasonable man, think your analysis is flawed.

If I was sitting the jury that heard a case on this statute I would not be convinced by your arguement.