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Voice Recording

Lovenox

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The recording is a legal act - not the officer forcing you to stop recording. If the officer prevents you (forces you to stop) from going about a legal activity (recording), they could be guilty of coercion.


Yup. My misterpetation.
 

TechnoWeenie

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What about an officer that pulls a car over on the side of the highway and is recording? The conversation is not audibly observable by the public.

Sure it is, anyone walking by is free to hear it, it is in public, where NO EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY EXISTS.

How about you are recording a conversation with a detective that is in a room that only you and him are in? He is in official capacity at that point and you are giving a statement. Is that private?

Don't overthink it.

Would a reasonable person think that the conversation was private? If someone said 'we need to talk', and proceeded to go into a room, where the door was closed behind me, I would damn well say that the intent was to keep the conversation private. In cases where you're at a police station interrogation room, there are warnings that you are on tape, if you don't want to be recorded, don't say anything.

Implied consent - read up on it.
 

TechnoWeenie

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You are confusing hearing and seeing. One can see something from 20 yds away but not hear anything. A person in a car is not in a position to be capable of hearing the conversation between the officer and vehicle operator.

I am just presenting an argument to technoweenie and his statement of "If the conversation can easily be overheard by others, even if others are not present (ie, in public)"

There is a fault in his argument. Just because you are in public does not make it a public conversation if others cannot hear it. If you are 30 yds away from everyone else in a park you would have the expectation that your words are not being heard by anyone else and are therefore private.

Except when you thought no one else was around, you didn't see my wife sitting in my car, or the guy crouching down by his car checking a scratch.

REASONABLE EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY. None exists in public.

public - not private; open to or concerning the people as a whole; "the public good"; "public libraries"; "public funds"; "public parks"; "a public scandal"; "public gardens"; "performers and members of royal families are public figures"
 

TechnoWeenie

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But while on duty it is all fair game. They can not try get around this by whispering, as mentioned before. In the Clark case it mentions that if someone doesn't think you will keep it private there is no expectation of privacy. So when an officer is on duty we have no obligation to keep anything he says to us private , this would mean we can also record what he says.

Cite?

It's illegal to record a private conversation without consent. Show me the case or law that says you can record private conversations of public officials without consent.

I'm waiting.
 

amlevin

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Cite?

It's illegal to record a private conversation without consent. Show me the case or law that says you can record private conversations of public officials without consent.

I'm waiting.

If that public official is performing his "Public Duties" the conversation is not private. Even meetings of public officials can't be "private" unless discussing items of personnel or non public legal information.
 

sudden valley gunner

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If that public official is performing his "Public Duties" the conversation is not private. Even meetings of public officials can't be "private" unless discussing items of personnel or non public legal information.

Exactly, and I did cite it's in the rulings read the posts carefully. The things you mention are in addition to the officers acting in their official capacity.

The officer while on duty has no expectation of privacy when dealing with the public, what "private" room or office is he bringing me too? The public one at the station we pay for?
 

TechnoWeenie

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If that public official is performing his "Public Duties" the conversation is not private. Even meetings of public officials can't be "private" unless discussing items of personnel or non public legal information.

Again. CITE?!
 

TechnoWeenie

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Exactly, and I did cite it's in the rulings read the posts carefully. The things you mention are in addition to the officers acting in their official capacity.

The officer while on duty has no expectation of privacy when dealing with the public, what "private" room or office is he bringing me too? The public one at the station we pay for?

You cited one sentence that has no bearing whatsoever on the case at hand.

Cite CASE LAW or CODIFIED LAW to support your statements.

I have.

The law says that it's illegal to record a private conversation without consent.

You say *unless it's a public official.

I say CITE the FACTUAL BASIS for it.. Either in case law, or codified law..


Lets break this down...

The State advances no persuasive basis for its contention that the conversation between the officers and Flora should be considered private.

The states argument that the recording of the officers was illegal, because the arrest and conversation were private, is bogus, and the court finds that there is no compelling argument for that to be true.

We note in particular that in none of the cases it cites as controlling were public officers asserting a privacy interest in statements uttered in the course of performing their official and public duties.

The state cited cases involving PRIVATE affairs, when OBVIOUSLY a PUBLIC matter, on a PUBLIC road is NOT PRIVATE. They can NOT claim that PUBLIC actions are private JUST because they're police officers.

Rather, the question in those cases was whether the personal privacy of an individual was improperly invaded.

The states argument was based on PRIVATE affairs in a PRIVATE manner, not PUBLIC arrests on a PUBLIC street.

he State now urges us to distort the rationale of those cases to support the proposition that police officers possess a personal privacy interest in statements they make as public officers effectuating an arrest.

AGAIN, the state wants to say that officers are acting in a private manner when effecting a PUBLIC arrest, and the court says it will not allow that.

The conversation at issue fails this threshold inquiry; the arrest was not entitled to be private. Moreover, the police officers in this case could not reasonably have considered their words private.

B e c a u s e

t h e y

w e r e

i n

p u b l i c !


Oh but wait.. There's more!

The State urges us to adopt the view that public officers performing an official function on a public thoroughfare in the presence of a third party and within the sight and hearing of passersby enjoy a privacy interest which they may assert under the statute. We reject that view as wholly without merit.

Oh wait, BECAUSE IT'S IN PUBLIC!





I'm still waiting for a cite.




To all those that are saying 'I can record any public official whenever I want', I invite you to schedule a meeting with an officer behind closed doors, and secretly record him, then advertise afterwards that you recorded him..

Oh.. wait.. you mean there's no codified law or case law to back up your assertion and you'd probably be convicted? ohh.. yeah.. that little thing..

Why the hell do people insist on reading things the way they want to, to fit what they want, instead of reading it for what it is ?
 
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gogodawgs

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<snip<To all those that are saying 'I can record any public official whenever I want', I invite you to schedule a meeting with an officer behind closed doors, and secretly record him, then advertise afterwards that you recorded him..

Oh.. wait.. you mean there's no codified law or case law to back up your assertion and you'd probably be convicted? ohh.. yeah.. that little thing..

Why the hell do people insist on reading things the way they want to, to fit what they want, instead of reading it for what it is ?

Parks,

You are absolutely..........................wait for it............................

correct.
 

amlevin

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Again. CITE?!

RCW 42.30 covers public meetings.

From RCW 42.30.010
The people of this state do not yield their sovereignty to the agencies which serve them. The people, in delegating authority, do not give their public servants the right to decide what is good for the people to know and what is not good for them to know.

What's interesting is how many times the court has sided with the "defendants" when they were cited for recording public officials, ie police while performing their duties. Likewise with video recording.
 
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sudden valley gunner

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No he isn't. I didn't say I can record whenever I wanted I clarified that.

When they are acting in their public duties we can. I cited it, I talked about it. Read the decision carefully they definitely draw distinctive lines.

There is no expectation of privacy while engaging in public capacity.

Look at the word "morever", that means the other things mentioned in the cite are in addition to.

Trust me a cop whispers to you or takes you in a back room, and you think it's private so you tell him about the ounce of weed you have, he isn't going to make that a public conversation in the court transcripts following your arrest? So vice versa, according to Clark there is no expectation of privacy, if you feel the person you talking to will make it public.

Notice this quote in Flora on how the state defines the statute.

expresses a legislative intent to safeguard the private conversations of citizens from dissemination in any way. The statute reflects a desire to protect individuals from the disclosure of any secret illegally uncovered by law enforcement.

It is clear, however, that there must be something in the nature of prying or intrusion, . . . It is clear also that the thing into which there is intrusion or prying must be, and be entitled to be, private.

I cannot think of a situation where a public official's words to you in a public capacity is entitled to be private. It is contradictory to think so. This does not mean I can sneak a recorder into a LEO's office and leave it there while I am not present and record his conversation with other LEO.

[5] Privacy – Privacy Act – Private Conversations – What Constitutes – Threshold Inquiry. The recording of a conversation without all parties' consent does not violate RCW 9.73.030 if the conversation is not entitled to be private.
 
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sudden valley gunner

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From Anthony L. JOHNSON vs. City of Sequim

The language "public officers acting in their official capacity" does not exclude any conduct other than an actual arrest, but encompasses other conduct that is public and official.

Second, even where a conversation is not "public" in that it is not monitored or heard by the public, it may be "public" in that the subject of the conversation is strictly of a public business nature.

Moreover, Flora's plain language suggests a broader application sufficient to preclude Chief Nelson from arresting Johnson for recording him during the performance of his official duties in public.
 
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TechnoWeenie

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You're kidding right?

Do you not see that word in EVERY sentence you quoted?

I'll help you out...

The language "public officers acting in their official capacity" does not exclude any conduct other than an actual arrest, but encompasses other conduct that is public and official.

Second, even where a conversation is not "public" in that it is not monitored or heard by the public, it may be "public" in that the subject of the conversation is strictly of a public business nature.

Moreover, Flora's plain language suggests a broader application sufficient to preclude Chief Nelson from arresting Johnson for recording him during the performance of his official duties in public.

Again, your cite is relevant to PUBLIC acts, not private acts.
 

amlevin

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Talk about over thinking it. Any conversation a public official has in their official capacity as a public official is a public act.

Besides, it doesn't matter what we think here, it will be what the Courts think when they hear the case or appeal.

IANAL but I am flatulent in 3 Languages.
 
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TechnoWeenie

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Talk about over thinking it. Any conversation a public official has in their official capacity as a public official is a public act.

:banghead:

GIVE ME A CITE THAT SAYS THAT!

You cant use your OWN argument to cite your side of the argument.


You're saying 'a public official can be recorded any time because they're a public official and when acting as a public official their actions are public'

And I'm saying CITE!!!!

Your cite is 'they're a public official and anything they say when acting.....'


NO! Doesn't work that way.

You cant use your own statement to cite as a factual basis FOR YOUR STATEMENT.

Show me the code or case law that says 'public officials may be recorded' or 'any action taken by an official, on the clock, is not private'.

Lets recap: Me in blue.


You can record a public official, even in private, if he's on the clock
Where does it say that?
He's a public official, everything is public if he's on the clock
Where does it say that?
It says right here that a public official in public can be recorded!
Yes, in PUBLIC... Not in private, without consent
But he's a public official, he has no privacy.
Where does it say that?
You can record a public official....
:banghead:
 

TechnoWeenie

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RCW 42.30 covers public meetings.

From RCW 42.30.010

What's interesting is how many times the court has sided with the "defendants" when they were cited for recording public officials, ie police while performing their duties (in public!). Likewise with video recording.


See edit.
 

joeroket

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:banghead:

GIVE ME A CITE THAT SAYS THAT!

You cant use your OWN argument to cite your side of the argument.


You're saying 'a public official can be recorded any time because they're a public official and when acting as a public official their actions are public'

And I'm saying CITE!!!!

Your cite is 'they're a public official and anything they say when acting.....'


NO! Doesn't work that way.

You cant use your own statement to cite as a factual basis FOR YOUR STATEMENT.

Show me the code or case law that says 'public officials may be recorded' or 'any action taken by an official, on the clock, is not private'.

Lets recap: Me in blue.


You can record a public official, even in private, if he's on the clock
Where does it say that?
He's a public official, everything is public if he's on the clock
Where does it say that?
It says right here that a public official in public can be recorded!
Yes, in PUBLIC... Not in private, without consent
But he's a public official, he has no privacy.
Where does it say that?
You can record a public official....
:banghead:

Cites have been given. You aren't comprehending them the same as almost everyone else here. What does that tell you. It tells me there a differing opinions and your dumb colors and caps typing won't change it. I'm done with this one. You have your interpretation and I have mine.
 

TechnoWeenie

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Cites have been given. You aren't comprehending them the same as almost everyone else here. What does that tell you. It tells me there a differing opinions and your dumb colors and caps typing won't change it. I'm done with this one. You have your interpretation and I have mine.

Every cite given references actions IN PUBLIC, none reference recording a private conversation.
 
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