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Thread: Your manners questioned

  1. #1
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Your manners questioned

    Greetings from CT. I noticed a (usually fair) gun blogger criticizing your recent OC experiences at the library that have made the news.

    http://www.thebredafallacy.com/2011/...rs-matter.html

    I have been responding to this in the comments, as I feel it is a bit out of line to be criticizing you guys without actual facts (the news stories quoted are pretty terrible).

    In the interest of fairness, I wanted you guys to see this and be able to respond if you feel it is appropriate.

    Carry on!

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Read the comments too - they are enlightening.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    I have no idea where she got the idea anyone was being an '*******', but I highly doubt that was the case.

    I would love it if one of you guys had video of the event where you were all polite and respectful like I know you most likely were. That would be golden..


    It is shame when we cannot even rely on fellow '2A supporters' to stand up for our rights.

  4. #4
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    It is shame when we cannot even rely on fellow '2A supporters' to stand up for our rights.
    As OC becomes more common, we are finding that initially some supposedly strong 2A supporters find issue with OC in Michigan. But, as time goes on, most come around.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  5. #5
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    I will say that most all of the news articles have been incorrect in their reporting ( Oh my.). I attended both Library Board meetings unarmed to discuss their policy.

    Both times I entered the library to attend these meetings I was targeted by the security officer and told If I didn't submit to his questioning I would not be allowed into the meetings.

    I refused to answer his questions so he called the police which came and physically retrained me with no RAS or PC other than I wouldn't answer their questions. Not one other visitor to the library was asked if they were armed.

    I would say based on the security guards actions and the police that the unmannered ones were not the MOC members.

    There were no holstered flashed at anyone, the two MOC members that refused to leave were overly polite and even talked with the Security guard about a variety of topics. There was no panic, no screaming children, etc. As for sitting in the teen section that was coincidental as it is the nearest section to the entrance and had a table open so the members could prepare their comments for the Lansing City Council meeting later that night.

    This is much ado about nothing.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Wow. What a telling read there. So it is offensive to carry protective devices where there are people who can benefit from protective devices.....
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    and,,,

    it is now reasonable to Violate the 4th and 5 amendment rights
    of peaceful and lawful citizens that are endeavoring to exercise
    their 1st amendment right!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  8. #8
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Sadly, another post on a different blog.

    http://www.saysuncle.com/2011/02/14/...-white-people/

  9. #9
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    Sadly, another post on a different blog.

    http://www.saysuncle.com/2011/02/14/...-white-people/
    What dies this have to do with scaring white people? Every person to date that has carried into CADL is caucasian.

    He sound pretty ignorant about the story. Must be getting all his facts from major media outlets.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Must be getting all his facts from major media outlets.
    Actually, it sounds like he is getting his 'facts' from http://www.thebredafallacy.com/2011/...rs-matter.html, sadly.


    It is unfortunate that I have such high hopes for my fellow pro rights brethren, because it leads to so much disappointment when they occasionally join the side of ignorance.
    Last edited by Rich B; 02-14-2011 at 11:26 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    Actually, it sounds like he is getting his 'facts' from http://www.thebredafallacy.com/2011/...rs-matter.html, sadly.


    It is unfortunate that I have such high hopes for my fellow pro rights brethren, because it leads to so much disappointment when they occasionally join the side of ignorance.
    Yeah, I'm "DM" that was posting over there at The Breda Fallacy. Boy, did she ever live up to the name of her blog with her post and comments. I tried to get responses from her and the few other Fudds there with specific challenges to their thinking. No takers. They may be Fudds, but they ain't dumb. They know their views can't be defended.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  12. #12
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    They may be Fudds, but they ain't dumb. They know their views can't be defended.
    It is amazing (and terribly sad) how much trying to engage them in debate is like trying to engage anti-rights people in debate.

    I stand by my comparisons of her reasoning and emotional responses to japete's responses.

  13. #13
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    I stand by my comparisons of her reasoning and emotional responses to japete's responses.
    Well, agree with that comparison or not, it's nowhere near as off-base as her labeling me argumentative and trollish.

    You can tell by their own words how much she and the few others were bothered about getting called out about the Fuddish attitude their words conveyed.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  14. #14
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Well, agree with that comparison or not, it's nowhere near as off-base as her labeling me argumentative and trollish.
    The whole dialog consisted of:

    "You guys are a-holes"

    "Why? They didn't do anything wrong, you don't understand the facts."

    "You guys are a-holes, and you are trolling my blog!"

    "No we aren't, we are simply trying to explain why we feel your blog post is in error."

    "Stop calling me names!"

    "No one has called you any names so far. But your original post did call plenty of people names, as well as your replies in the comments being very derogatory."

    "Go away! Nothing to see here! I am only going to allow people to comment that agree with me in the future!"


    If anyone is a troll, it would be her for posting obvious bait and then posting about how many blog hits she is going to get because of it and never allowing any kind of reasoned discourse.
    Last edited by Rich B; 02-14-2011 at 12:50 PM.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    You can't fix stupid..... and imop a fudd is far worse and harder to deal with than an anti.

    Sent from my Droid Flipside using Tapatalk
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  16. #16
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    The anti's are going to just eat up the morons who are posting on there that they would perceive OCers as 'a threat' and would be getting ready to 'take action'.

    This is very sad indeed.

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  18. #18
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    A Valentine's Day rant... one I'll surely not be loved for.

    (the following is an unpaid for opinion... like it or don't... I don't care)

    To all those who think that hiding your guns keeps the right to keep and bear from the notice of those who would take away the right to keep and bear.... and constantly apologizing for the right by making sure never to annoy or offend the enemies of the right to keep and bear...

    You are cowards and fools one and all!

    Worse than fools because every time you cut down those who stand up for the very right you hide and are too cowardly to stand up for ... you are actively helping those who would take away that right.

    The idea of hiding your gun because someone might get "scared" or "offended" was planted in the consciousness of society by unrelenting PR campaigns orchestrated by................ the anti gun agenda. And to see gun owners actually spew that garbage as if it has anything to do with the right to keep and bear is............ disgusting.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 02-14-2011 at 02:38 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Or said a bit more genteelly, "A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost"
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    A Valentine's Day rant... one I'll surely not be loved for.

    (the following is an unpaid for opinion... like it or don't... I don't care)

    To all those who think that hiding your guns keeps the right to keep and bear from the notice of those who would take away the right to keep and bear.... and constantly apologizing for the right by making sure never to annoy or offend the enemies of the right to keep and bear...

    You are cowards and fools one and all!

    Worse than fools because every time you cut down those who stand up for the very right you hide and are too cowardly to stand up for ... you are actively helping those who would take away that right.

    The idea of hiding your gun because someone might get "scared" or "offended" was planted in the consciousness of society by unrelenting PR campaigns orchestrated by................ the anti gun agenda. And to see gun owners actually spew that garbage as if it has anything to do with the right to keep and bear is............ disgusting.
    I agree 100%.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  21. #21
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Hear, hear! Bikenut!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  22. #22

  23. #23
    KansasScout
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    congratulations

    I am one of the posters who spoke against behavior of those who decided to open carry in a Library, in Breda's blog.
    You did more to alienate fellow gunners and divide us than any anti gunner. Your stance has only made me begin to rethink this open carry movement given the lunacy of someone carrying a shotgun into a library. Even if this detail is not true, I still don't think a Library is the place to make your point.
    Calling your opponents names sure does nothing to win anyone over.
    You caused a great deal of damage to your cause.
    I have been a member of this forum for some time now and considered getting involved locally. I doubt I will now if most of you open carry guys think acting like this is valid.
    Perhaps you will reconsider your manner of persuasion. @ DM you did not do your cause any favors at Breda's blog.
    I have been a fierce advocate for my second amendment rights for more years than you have been alive I bet so save the name calling for someone else.
    I stand by the Constitution of the United States and am willing to fight for it. I support open carry because it means that bearing arms is real manifestation of that right.
    Just because I can does not mean I should in all places at all times. Don't give me your speeches about your rights when what your doing only scares people and makes more enemies than friends when you fail to exercise some discretion. Taking your issue with the library and it's decision to ban firearms would be better taken to court than what you did.
    Take your gun to the Statehouse, Courthouse, where you like if it advances the cause of freedom and the right to carry.
    If a "Katrina" happens in my community, I don't want to have a problem carrying my SKS around with my openly carried pistol.
    Otherwise I carry concealed in my suburban community here in KC. Tactically I am better off anyway.
    There is nothing wrong with open carry exercises in various places but not every place is a good place to try it.
    No right is absolute everywhere at all times with unlimited expression. You can't shout "fire" in a theatre even though you might think you have a right to do so. (you don't)

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KansasScout View Post
    Otherwise I carry concealed in my suburban community here in KC. Tactically I am better off anyway.
    There is nothing wrong with open carry exercises in various places but not every place is a good place to try it.
    No right is absolute everywhere at all times with unlimited expression. You can't shout "fire" in a theatre even though you might think you have a right to do so. (you don't)
    Kansas, I agree with much that you say and long guns are by the rules OT here on OCDO.

    I do take exception to several things you have said though.

    Please explain with facts and cites (not how you feel or think) how CC is tactically better. You picked a hard row to hoe on that one.

    Yes, I can yell "Fire" in a theater ..................... just needs to be an honest response to a real condition.

    BTW - I don't 'try" to OC every place that it is legal - I "do it" every day as I go about my regular, routine business - that includes libraries, restaurants, gas stations and our General Assembly Building.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KansasScout View Post
    I am one of the posters who spoke against behavior of those who decided to open carry in a Library, in Breda's blog.
    You did more to alienate fellow gunners and divide us than any anti gunner. Your stance has only made me begin to rethink this open carry movement given the lunacy of someone carrying a shotgun into a library. Even if this detail is not true, I still don't think a Library is the place to make your point.
    Calling your opponents names sure does nothing to win anyone over.
    You caused a great deal of damage to your cause.
    I have been a member of this forum for some time now and considered getting involved locally. I doubt I will now if most of you open carry guys think acting like this is valid.
    Perhaps you will reconsider your manner of persuasion. @ DM you did not do your cause any favors at Breda's blog.
    I have been a fierce advocate for my second amendment rights for more years than you have been alive I bet so save the name calling for someone else.
    I stand by the Constitution of the United States and am willing to fight for it. I support open carry because it means that bearing arms is real manifestation of that right.
    Just because I can does not mean I should in all places at all times. Don't give me your speeches about your rights when what your doing only scares people and makes more enemies than friends when you fail to exercise some discretion. Taking your issue with the library and it's decision to ban firearms would be better taken to court than what you did.
    Take your gun to the Statehouse, Courthouse, where you like if it advances the cause of freedom and the right to carry.
    If a "Katrina" happens in my community, I don't want to have a problem carrying my SKS around with my openly carried pistol.
    Otherwise I carry concealed in my suburban community here in KC. Tactically I am better off anyway.
    There is nothing wrong with open carry exercises in various places but not every place is a good place to try it.
    No right is absolute everywhere at all times with unlimited expression. You can't shout "fire" in a theatre even though you might think you have a right to do so. (you don't)
    Your comments sound EXACTLY like those made by CCers about those OCing a pistol, or much like any general owner of firearm (for hunting only, and of course only a shotgun or rifle) talking to people licensed to CC. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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