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Thread: 2011 Open carry legislation

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    2011 Open carry legislation

    I received a return call from my rep, Paul Fitzwater. He stated that we needed some "Common sense" legislation passed and stated that he would start right away. I have gathered some info for him already but, I have ran across a new twist. What and where is the "written consent" for OC??? If any one could give your reps a call that would be very helpful.
    The responsibility is ours, the results, GODS

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    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patriotthad View Post
    I received a return call from my rep, Paul Fitzwater. He stated that we needed some "Common sense" legislation passed and stated that he would start right away. I have gathered some info for him already but, I have ran across a new twist. What and where is the "written consent" for OC??? If any one could give your reps a call that would be very helpful.
    If you are asking what gives Missourians the legal right to carry a firearm that would be Section 1 article 23 of Missouri Constitution. If you are referring to what give cities and towns the legal standing to make OC illegal that would be section 21-750. It's all written out here.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...al-in-Missouri

    Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    If you are asking what gives Missourians the legal right to carry a firearm that would be Section 1 article 23 of Missouri Constitution. If you are referring to what give cities and towns the legal standing to make OC illegal that would be section 21-750. It's all written out here.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...al-in-Missouri

    Doc
    And I firmly believe that section 21-750 violates Section 1 Article 23 of the Missouri Constitution and that part that allows cities to prohibit OC should be removed.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9026543 View Post
    And I firmly believe that section 21-750 violates Section 1 Article 23 of the Missouri Constitution and that part that allows cities to prohibit OC should be removed.
    You have to tell your legislators!!!! Go to Gun Day in Jeffereson City. Oh, you can get arrested and challange it is court. That takes some time, money and freedom lost days from work. I bug the heck out of my Rep and Senator. Sure they are all pro-2A, what do they sponsor? Not a darn thing, just like yours.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    "If you are asking what gives Missourians the legal right to carry a firearm that would be ....."Doc
    ...the "Creator", or the fact that I EXIST gives me the right, however you prefer to think about it. My sovereignty as an individual gives me the right to do ANYTHING I want that does not violate the rights of another. All people of all ages have always understood the right to self-preservation. Every justice system in the history of men has understood and upheld this glaring right in some measure. It is inherent, obvious and immutable. The state and US Constitutions only "protect" that right.

    I know most of you already knew that I just like to say it lots of different ways when I get the chance.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    OC

    Of course - good point, but that won't change the Missouri Statutes. OC through out the State of Missouri would be good. The public needs to learn it's not the firearm, it's the idiots. We just have to convince the legislature.... NOT EASY!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    I'm not asking what statute allows cities to regulate OC. My question should be, does any one know of a city that requires written permission to OC. And, anyone who gets arrested for doing something that they know is prohibited on April 6th, at the capitol, will be more of a hinderance to the cause than a help. Use SOME sense.
    The responsibility is ours, the results, GODS

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    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patriotthad View Post
    I'm not asking what statute allows cities to regulate OC. My question should be, does any one know of a city that requires written permission to OC. And, anyone who gets arrested for doing something that they know is prohibited on April 6th, at the capitol, will be more of a hindrance to the cause than a help. Use SOME sense.
    There are basically 3 jurisdictions that hold on to an old hunting law that says you can't enter onto the property of another without written permission, and use that law to harass OCers. Wildwood/ Chesterfield/ Unincorporated sections of St Louis County. They can't use it to address CCW as that is all Pre-emanate. I can post the codes if you like. Per Mspgunner (You can find him 2 posts above this one). Wildwood has said they will arrest you on site for OCing. They are even saying public property ie streets and sidewalks belong to them and you can't OC there. Even though they have no law restricting Open Carry.

    Doc

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    Thanks, that is more what I was needing.
    The responsibility is ours, the results, GODS

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    There are basically 3 jurisdictions that hold on to an old hunting law that says you can't enter onto the property of another without written permission, and use that law to harass OCers. Wildwood/ Chesterfield/ Unincorporated sections of St Louis County. They can't use it to address CCW as that is all Pre-emanate. I can post the codes if you like. Per Mspgunner (You can find him 2 posts above this one). Wildwood has said they will arrest you on site for OCing. They are even saying public property ie streets and sidewalks belong to them and you can't OC there. Even though they have no law restricting Open Carry.

    Doc
    That's about right. I just checked the Missouri House Bill site, there are no bills presently to eliminate the ban which can imposed the restriction of OC in Missouri by the Cities that wish to do so. It would be nice to get this behind, but I don't see it happening....
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    Rep. Fitzwater has drafted OC legislation that will require a CCW to OC. It will pre-empt all localities. Will keep you posted.
    The responsibility is ours, the results, GODS

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    Quote Originally Posted by patriotthad View Post
    Rep. Fitzwater has drafted OC legislation that will require a CCW to OC. It will pre-empt all localities. Will keep you posted.

    So, this legislation would require citizens to pay for something they can do now legally without paying for? No offense, but I don't wish to have my Second Amendment right to carry a firearm limited by the hurdles and stipulations the State feels necessary to be granted the privilege of carrying concealed.

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    CCW $38 Required training $75 Total $113.
    Cost of being arrested in a city that has a ban on OC,
    Fourth Class city $500+ Court cost.
    1st class city $1000? + court cost.
    Lawyer fee $500+
    Up to 3 months in jail
    On your record for the rest of your life

    Lets get this passed, we can iron out the fine print later.
    The responsibility is ours, the results, GODS

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    I have never been one who believes trying to "iron out" the details after, is the right way to go with legislation. I applaud your attempts to get OC legal statewide, but cannot support this route. As it is now OC(or the Right To Keep And Bear Arms, if you will) is a right and the ability to conceal carry a weapon is a privilege granted by the State, after meeting minimum requirements and paying required fees. The proposed legislation would take the right I was born with an turn it into a privilege, granted(or denied) by the State.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patriotthad View Post
    Rep. Fitzwater has drafted OC legislation that will require a CCW to OC. It will pre-empt all localities. Will keep you posted.
    Of course soem may not like this... Of course. But one thing it does is eliminate the mix of OC and no OC. Get the Cities out of the OC pictures and you can OC any where in the State except for the "prohibited places".

    A good deal in my book. "Shall not be infringed" is infringed. The goal (IMHO) is to undo the "infringed". This is one way to do it. No one is going to remove the statute that exists, not gonna happen. Better to take this then nothing. My guess is, this won't even make it out of committee.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by patriotthad View Post
    Rep. Fitzwater has drafted OC legislation that will require a CCW to OC. It will pre-empt all localities. Will keep you posted.
    I'm all for preemption at the State level , however this is bad . Stop this at all cost now. this of course is only my opinion .

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    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
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    maybe

    Quote Originally Posted by patriotthad View Post
    Rep. Fitzwater has drafted OC legislation that will require a CCW to OC. It will pre-empt all localities. Will keep you posted.
    It really depends on how this bill is written to whether it would be detrimental or not. If it gained access to OC (even at the price of having a CCW) to the area's that currently do not allow OC, without requiring a CCW to continue OC in areas that do not require it then it would be a big step in the right direction.

    Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by patriotthad View Post
    Rep. Fitzwater has drafted OC legislation that will require a CCW to OC. It will pre-empt all localities. Will keep you posted.
    this MIGHT be better for people who would OC regardless if they had a CCW and had the choice to CCW. but what about the people who OC, B/C they cant afford the CCW. now they have no option. this isnt just about people who cant find the money either. what about the younger guys that arent 23, so their only option is to OC? they are ******, even if they have the money to get a CCW. you cant buy your age:P

    plus when you get that CCW requirement added on, i dont think your going to iron that out later. once thats added, i think thats going to be perminent.

    this would rule out the option to OC to to many people, weithers its due to lack of money or age etc, i cant justify having others lose their option to carry all together for me to support this.

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    I want every one to understand, I want a statewide right to OC without any permits. However, at this time that is impossible due to allowing cities to regulate OC. For example, in a small town in my area, one man OCed. The city council met and overnight passed a no OC ordinance. Now NO ONE can OC. We have wanted a statewide OC preemption for years. Now, we have a chance to get just that. As for those under 23, an out of state permit could be obtained at 18 years old from Utah. As to cost, look at my above post spelling out the fines, lawyer fees and etc. for simply being in a no OC town. Or, better yet a town that has no ban on OC but, arrests a person for peace disturbance etc. There are several states that have ironed out the flaws, AZ, AK, KY etc. In KY, a person had to have a ccw to oc. Not anymore. Now, they have a no ccw required law (OC). Lets get behind this, get it passed and everyone will become accustomed to OC. Then work on becoming a constitutional carry state.
    The responsibility is ours, the results, GODS

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    Regular Member Broondog's Avatar
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    at this moment i cannot support this proposed "need CCW to OC" legislation.

    i am of the camp that is A: permanently ineligible to obtain a MO CCW permit as the law is currently worded, and B: regardless of CCW eligibility simply refuse to pay a fee for a permit to allow me to do something that is clearly my inalienable right to do as stated in both the US and MO Constitutions.

    it will take quite a bit of convincing to get me to support a bill such as this.
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    No

    I will pray day in and day out that this does not get a foothold. I do not want to get a government permission slip to exercise my rights. What we need to strive for is constitutional carry! Arizona and Vermont have sccomplished it why not Missouri?

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    I hopefully have a chance to speak with our legislators about our concerns.
    The responsibility is ours, the results, GODS

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    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    How about just changing preemption to say something like:

    No county, city or municipal corporation, by zoning, ordinance, resolution, rule, directive or other enactment, shall regulate in any manner; the possession, ownership, transport, carrying (openly or concealed), transfer, sale, purchase, licensing, or registration of firearms or components of firearms; firearms dealers; or dealers in firearms components.


    That's it. That is all it would take for OC to be legal without a permit.

    Add some teeth to it if your current preemption does not already have it:
    The State or any private person, organization or entity may bring suit for a violation of state preemption. If such plaintiff is the prevailing party, he or she shall be entitled to recover his or her costs in such action, including reasonable attorney's fees.

    Could even add that no public funds may be used in the defending of a preemption case or add a nice fine if found to be in violation (Florida is considering adding a 5 million fine to their preemption.)

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    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcbess View Post
    Arizona and Vermont have sccomplished it why not Missouri?
    Vermont did not accomplish anything. They just never enacted gun laws. Arizona and Alaska are...Well...Arizona and Alaska.

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    Do not let them pass CCP to OC

    I'm all for picking your battles, but loosing ground already gained is a foolish and immoral position, in my opinion. If most places don't require a permit to OC, it would be evil and also an admission that some "gun control" is ok or worthwhile.

    A completely different and acceptable strategy would be what we face here in Florida: we're going for licensed OC right now because OC is expressly prohibited with or without a concealed carry license. If this succeeds in Florida, where half of New Jersey has moved to the southern portion of the state, I would think MO could eventually tweak it's preemption law to recognize OC.

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