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Thread: LEO Interaction at State Department Fed Credit Union in Arlington

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    LEO Interaction at State Department Fed Credit Union in Arlington

    I am visiting my Brother in law here in Arlington, VA. I went to the Stat Department Federal Credit Union at 3100 Claredon Blvd. today. I was ccw today. I went into the building (no posts) while my brother in law parked the truck.

    They have an Arlington LEO posted in the bank.

    After about 10 minutes in line my brother in law comes in, tells me he parked a block away and then waits in the back for me to get done. I see the LEO move over to talk to the brother in law. I didn't hear what was said and basically ignored the entire situation!

    About 10 minutes later I am finished and we start to walk out of the bank, followed by the LEO. He stopped me right outside the door and asked me if I had a ccw. I told him yes. He asked for it and my DL. He said he saw the barrel of my pistol.. which is a Kimber Ultra Raptor in a Blackhawk Serpa that is cut 1/2" longer than my 3" barrel... My brother in law said he couldn't see it and can't figure how he saw it...My brother in law said he thought he just noticed the bulge...

    He ran my info, all came back clean and clear of course, and sent me on the way!!

    I guess I should have OC'd like have did all day yesterday. A few stares, but nothing said!!!

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Oh, dear! A contact with a cop and nobody was drawn down on or proned out. Just a fairly normal interaction with everybody going away feeling good.

    We must immediately contact Arlington PD and threaten them with something drastic! [/sarcasm]

    Why is there an Arlington PD stationed at the bank? Is he moonlighting as private security, or do the cops have nothing better to do than assign officers there? (Yes, it's my usual rant about cops moonlighting as private security while wearing their cop uniform.)

    stay safe.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chkultr View Post
    He said he saw the barrel of my pistol.. which is a Kimber Ultra Raptor in a Blackhawk Serpa that is cut 1/2" longer than my 3" barrel...
    And of course the real response to the LEO should have been:

    "If you SAW the gun, then why do you want to see my CONCEALED handgun permit?"

    I'm sorry, I simply cannot get on the praise bandwagon for an LEO who was obviously on a fishing expedition.

    TFred

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    And of course the real response to the LEO should have been:

    "If you SAW the gun, then why do you want to see my CONCEALED handgun permit?"

    I'm sorry, I simply cannot get on the praise bandwagon for an LEO who was obviously on a fishing expedition.

    TFred
    I can understand this. Police are pretty darned good at spotting questionable behavior and if a citizen was simply conducting a normal banking transaction while CC'ing, one does have to wonder why an LEO would stop and ask to see a permit and ID. Does make one wonder.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Yeah, what they said.
    1) You don't have to show your DL unless you're driving.
    2) If he could see your pistol, you didn't need a permit. If it was concealed, he didn't see it, so wouldn't have known to stop you & pester you.
    3) What RAS did he have of a crime in order to stop you in the first place?
    4) Was he really on duty, or was the bank paying him? If the latter, he had no right to demand anything of you. If the former, why is the city (taxpayers) paying to secure a business?
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Yeah, what they said.
    1) You don't have to show your DL unless you're driving.
    You have to show a Picture ID and CHP on demand. That's one of the costs of selling your soul.

    2) If he could see your pistol, you didn't need a permit. If it was concealed, he didn't see it, so wouldn't have known to stop you & pester you.
    Good point but hard to argue!

    3) What RAS did he have of a crime in order to stop you in the first place?
    I don't think he needs RAS to check your permission slip!

    4) Was he really on duty, or was the bank paying him? If the latter, he had no right to demand anything of you. If the former, why is the city (taxpayers) paying to secure a business?
    Don't confuse Police Powers with that of a Security Officer. The question is "Was he within his venue"
    ...

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    You have to show a Picture ID and CHP on demand. That's one of the costs of selling your soul.
    ...
    It's back to that Catch-22 thing again. Code says only if you are actually carrying concealed. If the LEO saw the gun, then he wasn't carrying concealed.

    Clearly a case where a voice recorder is critical, should it end up in front of a judge.

    If the LEO just walks up and asks Are you carrying concealed, or May I see your CHP, I would think both replies should start with "Why would you think that", or "Why would you think I am carrying a concealed handgun?" etc...

    In any case, I would think that all but the most dense individuals would be able to eventually see their untenable position when you direct their thought pattern to "how did you know I was carrying a gun" along with "how are you going to tell the judge that you knew I was carrying a gun?"

    TFred

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    "how are you going to tell the judge that you knew I was carrying a gun?"
    I took a wild guess when you pulled up with a GUNS Save Lives Magnet on yer car
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    MKE Gal: "4) Was he really on duty, or was the bank paying him? If the latter, he had no right to demand anything of you. If the former, why is the city (taxpayers) paying to secure a business?"

    PeterNap: "Don't confuse Police Powers with that of a Security Officer. The question is "Was he within his venue"


    Now, this is an interesting point.

    It raises the question: if a cop is moonlighting as a private security guard, does he have authority to demand CHP and government issued photo ID (VA Code 18.2-308.H.)?

    Hmmm. I think the statute answers the question. "...such a permittee shall carry with him and display, upon request of a law-enforcement officer..."

    Based on the statute language, its not the cop's authority that compels providing the evidence of soul-selling; its the statute. (Gotta admire Nap's style.) It would seem RAS does not enter in to it at this point. Nor, the cop's duty status, about which the statute makes no distinction.

    I'm thinking the momentarily visible gun or holster would give the cop RAS for a detention under 18.2-308A.

    I'm not particularly supportive of the idea that a generally-concealed-but-momentarily-exposed handgun is actually OCd. If it shows below the hem of a cover garment for a moment, then disappears again, it is obviously concealed as soon as it disappears, thus triggering 18.2-308A.

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    MKE Gal: "4) Was he really on duty, or was the bank paying him? If the latter, he had no right to demand anything of you. If the former, why is the city (taxpayers) paying to secure a business?"

    PeterNap: "Don't confuse Police Powers with that of a Security Officer. The question is "Was he within his venue"


    Now, this is an interesting point.

    It raises the question: if a cop is moonlighting as a private security guard, does he have authority to demand CHP and government issued photo ID (VA Code 18.2-308.H.)?

    Hmmm. I think the statute answers the question. "...such a permittee shall carry with him and display, upon request of a law-enforcement officer..."

    Based on the statute language, its not the cop's authority that compels providing the evidence of soul-selling; its the statute. (Gotta admire Nap's style.) It would seem RAS does not enter in to it at this point. Nor, the cop's duty status, about which the statute makes no distinction.

    I'm thinking the momentarily visible gun or holster would give the cop RAS for a detention under 18.2-308A.

    I'm not particularly supportive of the idea that a generally-concealed-but-momentarily-exposed handgun is actually OCd. If it shows below the hem of a cover garment for a moment, then disappears again, it is obviously concealed as soon as it disappears, thus triggering 18.2-308A.
    Things are so much easier for me

    Cop: Excuse me Sir. Are you carrying a gun?

    Me: Why yes, yes, I am Officer. What gave me away?

    Cop: It was the six inch barreled Model 29 on your belt that your jacket is tucked behind. Have a joy joy day!

    Me: Thank you officer! Watch those doughnuts!

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    a LEO I know was told by his SGT. was illegal because .. "banks are insured by FDIC with makes them FEDERAL property."
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Who knows

    I am not sure if he was on/off official duty. His police car was parked out front. I also know at home Towne Bank hires/has them in the branches and they have their police cars parked out front

    A friend of mine said he probably thought I was CCW without a CCW.

    I have a family friend that is a captain in the Arlington PD. I think I might give her a shout..

    I did have the voice recorder on my phone I use...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    a LEO I know was told by his SGT. was illegal because .. "banks are insured by FDIC with makes them FEDERAL property."
    (chuckle)

    I don't know which is funnier: that some cops just make it up as they go along, or that some cops will believe anything.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chkultr View Post
    I did have the voice recorder on my phone I use...
    I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that it was not ON and Recording during the interaction..

    Which is why I stick to my guns on the recorder issue and say it must be ON and RECORDING to capture the incidents like this when you carry. If nothing was said the entire day of interest.. you delete and start over the next day.

    What if you have a life or death confrontation and you have to defend yourself. Don't you want an audio record of the encounter? what was said? when you shot? the timeline? I sure do!
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    a LEO I know was told by his SGT. was illegal because .. "banks are insured by FDIC with makes them FEDERAL property."
    "My house is insured by State Farm. Does that mean the state owns my house?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    "My house is insured by State Farm. Does that mean the state owns my house?"
    LOL!

    Of course the proper reply is, "Yeah, well, its loaded with Federal ammunition, so I can go on any damn federal property I want."

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    And of course the real response to the LEO should have been:

    "If you SAW the gun, then why do you want to see my CONCEALED handgun permit?"

    I'm sorry, I simply cannot get on the praise bandwagon for an LEO who was obviously on a fishing expedition.

    TFred
    TFred - I think that you are confusing two different things. The fact that the cop saw the gun doesn't mean that it wasn't concealed. In this case, I would say that the gun was being carried concealed, albeit poorly and the officer was within his limits in asking for the permit and photo id.

    Its just like open carry: What the officer can or can't see is not the issue, its the manner in which you are carrying that determines OC. A poorly CC'd gun that becomes seen doesn't make it OC, it just makes it poorly concealed.
    James Reynolds

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    TFred - I think that you are confusing two different things. The fact that the cop saw the gun doesn't mean that it wasn't concealed. In this case, I would say that the gun was being carried concealed, albeit poorly and the officer was within his limits in asking for the permit and photo id.

    Its just like open carry: What the officer can or can't see is not the issue, its the manner in which you are carrying that determines OC. A poorly CC'd gun that becomes seen doesn't make it OC, it just makes it poorly concealed.

    +1

    Therein lies the truth of the matter.
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Krispy Kreme

    Hey Ed,
    I would like to collect my dozen hot and now doughnuts this morning if you don't mind. (LOL)

    My phone is set up with the voice recorder for such situations. Just a tap of the screen and we have a green light!

    He might have gotten a peak at the bottom of my holster when I reached in my back pocket to get my ID card. I usually will tuck my sweatshirt up under the holster to keep it from being exposed. I know for a fact he didn't see the gun. I trimmed the holster a 1/2" longer..

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chkultr View Post
    Hey Ed,
    I would like to collect my dozen hot and now doughnuts this morning if you don't mind. (LOL)

    My phone is set up with the voice recorder for such situations. Just a tap of the screen and we have a green light!
    Sorry.. not a winner. "If you JUST have to TAP a screen, push a button, etc." you are missing the point. One never knows when any type of encounter may occur. I am talking about the times you need the digital record most and don't have the luxury for reaching for your device to START the recording" Besides.. what if your phone is recording something important you need and you have to make or receive a phone call? Get one of these http://tinyurl.com/sonydigrec show me yer receipt with a recent date and I will PayPal you 1/2 :-)

    Ed
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Yeah, what they said.
    1) You don't have to show your DL unless you're driving.
    2) If he could see your pistol, you didn't need a permit. If it was concealed, he didn't see it, so wouldn't have known to stop you & pester you.
    3) What RAS did he have of a crime in order to stop you in the first place?
    4) Was he really on duty, or was the bank paying him? If the latter, he had no right to demand anything of you. If the former, why is the city (taxpayers) paying to secure a business?
    If you're carrying concealed and your coat rides up to expose the pistol and the officer sees this, then the officer observed you carrying concealed. The pistol cannot magically appear on your belt when the coat rides up, it was concealed under the coat before it rode up. The RAS is that he observed a concealed pistol and concealing a pistol without a license is a crime, and considering a relatively small percentage of the population has a CCW permit, so until he sees your license, a reasonable officer in that situation would develop suspicion that the crime of carrying a concealed weapon was being committed.

    Remember, to detain, they do not need Probable Cause, only Reasonable Suspicion. It is a considerably lower threshold.

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    The RAS is that he observed a concealed pistol and concealing a pistol without a license is a crime.
    Thats a big reach. I can open or conceal at my free will. (Taking off and putting on my coat, or letting my shirt ride up.. intentionally or not..) It still does not give probable cause.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member USNA69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that it was not ON and Recording during the interaction..

    Which is why I stick to my guns on the recorder issue and say it must be ON and RECORDING to capture the incidents like this when you carry. If nothing was said the entire day of interest.. you delete and start over the next day.

    What if you have a life or death confrontation and you have to defend yourself. Don't you want an audio record of the encounter? what was said? when you shot? the timeline? I sure do!
    +1

    Your DVR must become a routine action ... a ritual. Mine is on my bureau. When I prepare to leave home and carry, I first place the DVR on a lanyard around my neck, start to record, and place it in my shirt pocket. Only them do I don my holster and sidearm. Same thing ... EVERY TIME. I never have to make the conscious decision.

    In a life threatening situation, you WILL NOT remember to start a recorder. Just run it all the time; batteries are cheap.

    When I return home and disarm, I erase the recording, if nothing happened.

    That DVR is your only truth insurance; don't leave home without it.

    Mine is an Olympus VN-6200PC.

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    Just to chime in on the cop being "on duty" or not, I can only speak for my local department because I know the policy but I would imagine it is similar in Arlington. When a police officer works part time, inside of the same city they patrol, they are getting paid by the business they are working security for. They still have all of their normal police powers. As soon as they switch to doing a police action (such as making an arrest) the pay from the business stops and they are compensated by the city.

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    The RAS is that he observed a concealed pistol and concealing a pistol without a license is a crime
    Driving a car without a license is illegal as well, yet I suspect that you don't want them pulling over EVERYONE because they MIGHT be driving w/o a license do you?

    You see them driving, you know it's illegal to drive w/o a license, that's enough RAS to pull someone over? Doubt it.

    The only difference here is that the subject of discussion is a GUN vs a car. You're falling into the anti-gun trap, seeing the gun as the evil thing instead of the person behind it.
    Last edited by xd shooter; 02-13-2011 at 11:48 AM.

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