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LEO Interaction at State Department Fed Credit Union in Arlington

Chkultr

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
236
Location
Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA
I am visiting my Brother in law here in Arlington, VA. I went to the Stat Department Federal Credit Union at 3100 Claredon Blvd. today. I was ccw today. I went into the building (no posts) while my brother in law parked the truck.

They have an Arlington LEO posted in the bank.

After about 10 minutes in line my brother in law comes in, tells me he parked a block away and then waits in the back for me to get done. I see the LEO move over to talk to the brother in law. I didn't hear what was said and basically ignored the entire situation!

About 10 minutes later I am finished and we start to walk out of the bank, followed by the LEO. He stopped me right outside the door and asked me if I had a ccw. I told him yes. He asked for it and my DL. He said he saw the barrel of my pistol.. which is a Kimber Ultra Raptor in a Blackhawk Serpa that is cut 1/2" longer than my 3" barrel... My brother in law said he couldn't see it and can't figure how he saw it...My brother in law said he thought he just noticed the bulge...

He ran my info, all came back clean and clear of course, and sent me on the way!!

I guess I should have OC'd like have did all day yesterday. A few stares, but nothing said!!!
 

skidmark

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Oh, dear! A contact with a cop and nobody was drawn down on or proned out. Just a fairly normal interaction with everybody going away feeling good.

We must immediately contact Arlington PD and threaten them with something drastic! [/sarcasm]

Why is there an Arlington PD stationed at the bank? Is he moonlighting as private security, or do the cops have nothing better to do than assign officers there? (Yes, it's my usual rant about cops moonlighting as private security while wearing their cop uniform.)

stay safe.
 

TFred

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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
He said he saw the barrel of my pistol.. which is a Kimber Ultra Raptor in a Blackhawk Serpa that is cut 1/2" longer than my 3" barrel...
And of course the real response to the LEO should have been:

"If you SAW the gun, then why do you want to see my CONCEALED handgun permit?"

I'm sorry, I simply cannot get on the praise bandwagon for an LEO who was obviously on a fishing expedition.

TFred
 

SouthernBoy

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Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
And of course the real response to the LEO should have been:

"If you SAW the gun, then why do you want to see my CONCEALED handgun permit?"

I'm sorry, I simply cannot get on the praise bandwagon for an LEO who was obviously on a fishing expedition.

TFred

I can understand this. Police are pretty darned good at spotting questionable behavior and if a citizen was simply conducting a normal banking transaction while CC'ing, one does have to wonder why an LEO would stop and ask to see a permit and ID. Does make one wonder.
 

MKEgal

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in front of my computer, WI
Yeah, what they said.
1) You don't have to show your DL unless you're driving.
2) If he could see your pistol, you didn't need a permit. If it was concealed, he didn't see it, so wouldn't have known to stop you & pester you.
3) What RAS did he have of a crime in order to stop you in the first place?
4) Was he really on duty, or was the bank paying him? If the latter, he had no right to demand anything of you. If the former, why is the city (taxpayers) paying to secure a business?
 

peter nap

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Yeah, what they said.
1) You don't have to show your DL unless you're driving.
You have to show a Picture ID and CHP on demand. That's one of the costs of selling your soul.

2) If he could see your pistol, you didn't need a permit. If it was concealed, he didn't see it, so wouldn't have known to stop you & pester you.
Good point but hard to argue!

3) What RAS did he have of a crime in order to stop you in the first place?
I don't think he needs RAS to check your permission slip!

4) Was he really on duty, or was the bank paying him? If the latter, he had no right to demand anything of you. If the former, why is the city (taxpayers) paying to secure a business?
Don't confuse Police Powers with that of a Security Officer. The question is "Was he within his venue"

...
 

TFred

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You have to show a Picture ID and CHP on demand. That's one of the costs of selling your soul.
...
It's back to that Catch-22 thing again. Code says only if you are actually carrying concealed. If the LEO saw the gun, then he wasn't carrying concealed.

Clearly a case where a voice recorder is critical, should it end up in front of a judge.

If the LEO just walks up and asks Are you carrying concealed, or May I see your CHP, I would think both replies should start with "Why would you think that", or "Why would you think I am carrying a concealed handgun?" etc...

In any case, I would think that all but the most dense individuals would be able to eventually see their untenable position when you direct their thought pattern to "how did you know I was carrying a gun" along with "how are you going to tell the judge that you knew I was carrying a gun?"

TFred
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
MKE Gal: "4) Was he really on duty, or was the bank paying him? If the latter, he had no right to demand anything of you. If the former, why is the city (taxpayers) paying to secure a business?"

PeterNap: "Don't confuse Police Powers with that of a Security Officer. The question is "Was he within his venue"


Now, this is an interesting point.

It raises the question: if a cop is moonlighting as a private security guard, does he have authority to demand CHP and government issued photo ID (VA Code 18.2-308.H.)?

Hmmm. I think the statute answers the question. "...such a permittee shall carry with him and display, upon request of a law-enforcement officer..."

Based on the statute language, its not the cop's authority that compels providing the evidence of soul-selling; its the statute. (Gotta admire Nap's style.) It would seem RAS does not enter in to it at this point. Nor, the cop's duty status, about which the statute makes no distinction.

I'm thinking the momentarily visible gun or holster would give the cop RAS for a detention under 18.2-308A.

I'm not particularly supportive of the idea that a generally-concealed-but-momentarily-exposed handgun is actually OCd. If it shows below the hem of a cover garment for a moment, then disappears again, it is obviously concealed as soon as it disappears, thus triggering 18.2-308A.
 

peter nap

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MKE Gal: "4) Was he really on duty, or was the bank paying him? If the latter, he had no right to demand anything of you. If the former, why is the city (taxpayers) paying to secure a business?"

PeterNap: "Don't confuse Police Powers with that of a Security Officer. The question is "Was he within his venue"


Now, this is an interesting point.

It raises the question: if a cop is moonlighting as a private security guard, does he have authority to demand CHP and government issued photo ID (VA Code 18.2-308.H.)?

Hmmm. I think the statute answers the question. "...such a permittee shall carry with him and display, upon request of a law-enforcement officer..."

Based on the statute language, its not the cop's authority that compels providing the evidence of soul-selling; its the statute. (Gotta admire Nap's style.) It would seem RAS does not enter in to it at this point. Nor, the cop's duty status, about which the statute makes no distinction.

I'm thinking the momentarily visible gun or holster would give the cop RAS for a detention under 18.2-308A.

I'm not particularly supportive of the idea that a generally-concealed-but-momentarily-exposed handgun is actually OCd. If it shows below the hem of a cover garment for a moment, then disappears again, it is obviously concealed as soon as it disappears, thus triggering 18.2-308A.

Things are so much easier for me:lol:

Cop: Excuse me Sir. Are you carrying a gun?

Me: Why yes, yes, I am Officer. What gave me away?

Cop: It was the six inch barreled Model 29 on your belt that your jacket is tucked behind. Have a joy joy day!

Me: Thank you officer! Watch those doughnuts!:uhoh:
 

Chkultr

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Feb 25, 2007
Messages
236
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Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA
Who knows

I am not sure if he was on/off official duty. His police car was parked out front. I also know at home Towne Bank hires/has them in the branches and they have their police cars parked out front

A friend of mine said he probably thought I was CCW without a CCW.

I have a family friend that is a captain in the Arlington PD. I think I might give her a shout..

I did have the voice recorder on my phone I use...
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
a LEO I know was told by his SGT. was illegal because .. "banks are insured by FDIC with makes them FEDERAL property." :banghead:

(chuckle)

I don't know which is funnier: that some cops just make it up as they go along, or that some cops will believe anything.
 

ed

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I did have the voice recorder on my phone I use...
I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that it was not ON and Recording during the interaction..

Which is why I stick to my guns on the recorder issue and say it must be ON and RECORDING to capture the incidents like this when you carry. If nothing was said the entire day of interest.. you delete and start over the next day.

What if you have a life or death confrontation and you have to defend yourself. Don't you want an audio record of the encounter? what was said? when you shot? the timeline? I sure do!
 

ProShooter

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www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
And of course the real response to the LEO should have been:

"If you SAW the gun, then why do you want to see my CONCEALED handgun permit?"

I'm sorry, I simply cannot get on the praise bandwagon for an LEO who was obviously on a fishing expedition.

TFred

TFred - I think that you are confusing two different things. The fact that the cop saw the gun doesn't mean that it wasn't concealed. In this case, I would say that the gun was being carried concealed, albeit poorly and the officer was within his limits in asking for the permit and photo id.

Its just like open carry: What the officer can or can't see is not the issue, its the manner in which you are carrying that determines OC. A poorly CC'd gun that becomes seen doesn't make it OC, it just makes it poorly concealed.
 

Grapeshot

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TFred - I think that you are confusing two different things. The fact that the cop saw the gun doesn't mean that it wasn't concealed. In this case, I would say that the gun was being carried concealed, albeit poorly and the officer was within his limits in asking for the permit and photo id.

Its just like open carry: What the officer can or can't see is not the issue, its the manner in which you are carrying that determines OC. A poorly CC'd gun that becomes seen doesn't make it OC, it just makes it poorly concealed.


+1

Therein lies the truth of the matter.
 

Chkultr

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Feb 25, 2007
Messages
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Location
Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA
Krispy Kreme

Hey Ed,
I would like to collect my dozen hot and now doughnuts this morning if you don't mind. (LOL)

My phone is set up with the voice recorder for such situations. Just a tap of the screen and we have a green light!

He might have gotten a peak at the bottom of my holster when I reached in my back pocket to get my ID card. I usually will tuck my sweatshirt up under the holster to keep it from being exposed. I know for a fact he didn't see the gun. I trimmed the holster a 1/2" longer..
 

ed

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Hey Ed,
I would like to collect my dozen hot and now doughnuts this morning if you don't mind. (LOL)

My phone is set up with the voice recorder for such situations. Just a tap of the screen and we have a green light!

Sorry.. not a winner. "If you JUST have to TAP a screen, push a button, etc." you are missing the point. One never knows when any type of encounter may occur. I am talking about the times you need the digital record most and don't have the luxury for reaching for your device to START the recording" Besides.. what if your phone is recording something important you need and you have to make or receive a phone call? Get one of these http://tinyurl.com/sonydigrec show me yer receipt with a recent date and I will PayPal you 1/2 :)

Ed
 
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