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need some clarification on a possible home invasion scenario

Snazuolu

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
62
Location
Forest
ok hypothetical story, ...you are at home, bad guy tries to kick in your door. he gets in after 2 kicks, you have a gun and a bat. 1 scenario is you shoot him in his legs, call the cops to come get him. what will happen to the shooter? 2 scenario, you club him in his knees, he goes down, you call the cops, what will happen to the bat owner? and 3 scenario.. you just shoot him dead, call the cops, what will happen to the shooter?

reason i am asking about this is i have a person telling me that shooting someone dead even in seif defense is worse than just maiming them and calling the cops, and that you wont goto jail. i have told them you never shoot unless you are prepared to kill and that if you shoot to maim, you could get in worse trouble than just killing them. who's right here?
 

peter nap

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Oct 16, 2007
Messages
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Location
Valhalla
ok hypothetical story, ...you are at home, bad guy tries to kick in your door. he gets in after 2 kicks, you have a gun and a bat. 1 scenario is you shoot him in his legs, call the cops to come get him. what will happen to the shooter? 2 scenario, you club him in his knees, he goes down, you call the cops, what will happen to the bat owner? and 3 scenario.. you just shoot him dead, call the cops, what will happen to the shooter?

reason i am asking about this is i have a person telling me that shooting someone dead even in seif defense is worse than just maiming them and calling the cops, and that you wont goto jail. i have told them you never shoot unless you are prepared to kill and that if you shoot to maim, you could get in worse trouble than just killing them. who's right here?

It's an old argument and a stupid one and one that's always made by someone that's never been in a gunfight or any other extreme situation.

You don't shoot someone unless it's necessary and you shoot them where they're biggest and pray you hit them. If he dies, he dies. If he lives, he lives. Either way, the fight is stopped.
 

ed

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
Joined
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Messages
4,841
Location
Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
ok hypothetical story, ...you are at home, bad guy tries to kick in your door. he gets in after 2 kicks, you have a gun and a bat. 1 scenario is you shoot him in his legs, call the cops to come get him. what will happen to the shooter? 2 scenario, you club him in his knees, he goes down, you call the cops, what will happen to the bat owner? and 3 scenario.. you just shoot him dead, call the cops, what will happen to the shooter?

reason i am asking about this is i have a person telling me that shooting someone dead even in seif defense is worse than just maiming them and calling the cops, and that you wont goto jail. i have told them you never shoot unless you are prepared to kill and that if you shoot to maim, you could get in worse trouble than just killing them. who's right here?
Every situation is different. I am not an attorney and don't give legal advice. If you are looking to decide what YOU should do, you should consult an attorney. If a guy is kicking in MY door, I call 911 or press my 911 Voice Alarm and I am connected. I may yell to the kicker that I have a gun and if he comes in, he will be shot.. (also being recorded by 911). Now it depends on what happens next.. If he actually kicks in the door and he is armed, I take him out.. If he kicks in my door see's I am armed and turns around a runs away I will give the police a great description. I have never had the situation happen to me but I have trained for it, in my mind, in class and in scenario houses. I don't ever aim to just wound. Good Luck.
 

Citizen

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Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
The OPers questions indicate he needs education on self-defense lethal force law in VA.

For him and any others who may benefit, there is a great reference source here:

http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html

I also recommend reading the rest of the site. Obviously the founder of the site has put a lot of time into it, and done the rest of us a great service.
 

PT111

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
2,243
Location
, South Carolina, USA
I was at a neighborhood watch meeting one night and a LEO was doing a Q&A after his speech discussing what to do if someone was breaking in and you had a gun. One lady asked what if you just shoot to wound him. The LEO's immediate response was "Lady, sell your gun and don't worry about it". He followed up with you never shoot to wound, you always shoot to stop the threat and if you are just going to try and wound someone such as in the first scenario that you shouldn't be carrying a gun. You will probably get it taken from you and used on you. If you are trying to decide whether to shoot in the knees or vital area then you are better off with the baseball bat. Plain and simple. You shoot to stop the threat or you run.
 

Badger Johnson

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Messages
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USA
The cop's answer is non-responsive. Her question was which is better, shoot to wound or shoot to kill and still allow her to live at home. (i.e. not go to jail)

It depends on the location, the age of the perp, the actions of the perp, the time of day, the size of the victim, age of the victim, whim of the prosecutor and the LEOs who come to the scene, and if the perp is 'connected' (like the Mayor's son).

Mayor's son, you'll get your CPL confiscated, he'll go free, being a 'good boy' who is 'cleaning up his act'.

HTH
 

papa bear

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Jul 25, 2010
Messages
2,222
Location
mayberry, nc
I was at a neighborhood watch meeting one night and a LEO was doing a Q&A after his speech discussing what to do if someone was breaking in and you had a gun. One lady asked what if you just shoot to wound him. The LEO's immediate response was "Lady, sell your gun and don't worry about it". He followed up with you never shoot to wound, you always shoot to stop the threat and if you are just going to try and wound someone such as in the first scenario that you shouldn't be carrying a gun. You will probably get it taken from you and used on you. If you are trying to decide whether to shoot in the knees or vital area then you are better off with the baseball bat. Plain and simple. You shoot to stop the threat or you run.

after talking to our local police chief, he would say that you need do nothing because they are there to protect you :banghead:. the good answer is
"you shoot to stop the threat" and center mass is the most effective. to the original question. here in NC you are allowed to shoot through the door at the first kick, but if they get in you use deadly force only if they are committing a felony :eek:. oh , and if you think they are going to rape you.
 

ed

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Messages
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Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
someone who kicks your door in is likely assumed to have hostile intentions.
Or was drunk, forgot their key, thought they were kicking in their own door (cuz they are a carpenter by trade and were gonna fix it later) and were either cold or really had to pee. This is where "time of day" comes into play as well.

user from OCDO on Time of Day said:
The issue presented is whether or not the intruder is a
burglar. You're entitled to presume that he is, if it's night-time, since
the definition of burglary is the breaking and entering into the dwelling
place of another in the night-time with the intention of committing a
felony. It's the intent to commit the felony that you're presuming if you
wake up at one o'clock a.m. with a stranger hovering over your bed. The use
of deadly force is excusable in stopping a serious felony in progress or
stopping one from imminently being committed. The "serious" felonies are
rape, robbery, murder, burglary, and arson. Obvious, as each of these
involves a potential threat to life and limb of innocent persons. If the
intruder comes in during the daytime, he's a trespasser, not a burglar. He
may be guilty of statutory breaking and entering, but that's not burglary.
So you can't use deadly force unless you reasonably apprehend the threat of
an imminent serious bodily injury. You may use such force as is reasonably
necessary to expel the trespasser, including deadly force if the level of
resistence requires it (e.g., he starts waving his machete in your
direction).
 

PT111

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Messages
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, South Carolina, USA
That said, someone who kicks your door in is likely assumed to have hostile intentions.

Or was drunk, forgot their key, thought they were kicking in their own door (cuz they are a carpenter by trade and were gonna fix it later) and were either cold or really had to pee. This is where "time of day" comes into play as well.

If someone kicks in your door I think that you can assume that they have hostile intentions no matter what their actual intentions are. It would be bad if it were a drunk at the wrong house whether during the day or night but if you are inside you have no way of knowing their intentions without them informing you. If they are kicking down your door, not announcing who they are and their purpose for kicking down the door then you should assume that they have hostile intentions. Lest say your wife is home alone. You come home too drunk to put the key in the lock and start kicking down the door (unfortunately not an unusual situation). She says who is it and you start cussing. Unless she can recognize your voice and is not afraid to let you in, you are and abusive husband, she can assume that you have hostile intentions. Lots of scenarios but if you are on one side of a closed door with someone kicking it in on the other side then you really only have one choice.
 

SouthernBoy

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Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
I was at a neighborhood watch meeting one night and a LEO was doing a Q&A after his speech discussing what to do if someone was breaking in and you had a gun. One lady asked what if you just shoot to wound him. The LEO's immediate response was "Lady, sell your gun and don't worry about it". He followed up with you never shoot to wound, you always shoot to stop the threat and if you are just going to try and wound someone such as in the first scenario that you shouldn't be carrying a gun. You will probably get it taken from you and used on you. If you are trying to decide whether to shoot in the knees or vital area then you are better off with the baseball bat. Plain and simple. You shoot to stop the threat or you run.

This.

It is unusual to hear an LEO convey this information in such an honest and realistic fashion. Good for him and those folks present when he said this. Many times, I have entered into conversations with people who have entertained the same idea. They watch too much TV or see too many movies... enough that they actually believe they could deliver a wounding shot to someone's leg or shoulder or hand and that would be the end of it.

Good for the officer.
 

SouthernBoy

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Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
The cop's answer is non-responsive. Her question was which is better, shoot to wound or shoot to kill and still allow her to live at home. (i.e. not go to jail)

It depends on the location, the age of the perp, the actions of the perp, the time of day, the size of the victim, age of the victim, whim of the prosecutor and the LEOs who come to the scene, and if the perp is 'connected' (like the Mayor's son).

Mayor's son, you'll get your CPL confiscated, he'll go free, being a 'good boy' who is 'cleaning up his act'.

HTH

There is only one thing this depends upon and that is whether or not you feel yourself and/or your family to be in imminent danger of serious bodily harm. In some states the mere fact that someone is violently trying to break into your home is reason enough to use deadly force. The officer gave a salient answer to the lady's question and an valid recommendation to her as well.
 

SouthernBoy

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5,837
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Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
Or was drunk, forgot their key, thought they were kicking in their own door (cuz they are a carpenter by trade and were gonna fix it later) and were either cold or really had to pee. This is where "time of day" comes into play as well.

"Originally Posted by user from OCDO on Time of Day
The issue presented is whether or not the intruder is a
burglar. You're entitled to presume that he is, if it's night-time, since
the definition of burglary is the breaking and entering into the dwelling
place of another in the night-time with the intention of committing a
felony. It's the intent to commit the felony that you're presuming if you
wake up at one o'clock a.m. with a stranger hovering over your bed. The use
of deadly force is excusable in stopping a serious felony in progress or
stopping one from imminently being committed. The "serious" felonies are
rape, robbery, murder, burglary, and arson. Obvious, as each of these
involves a potential threat to life and limb of innocent persons. If the
intruder comes in during the daytime, he's a trespasser, not a burglar. He
may be guilty of statutory breaking and entering, but that's not burglary.
So you can't use deadly force unless you reasonably apprehend the threat of
an imminent serious bodily injury. You may use such force as is reasonably
necessary to expel the trespasser, including deadly force if the level of
resistence requires it (e.g., he starts waving his machete in your
direction)."


Having attended several of user's seminars, this definition always raised some eyebrows in the class and every time I have told this to someone, I could tell a few didn't believe me. In user's classes, there were always further questions and his resulting explanations about this legal concept.
 

USNA69

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
375
Location
Norfolk, Virginia, USA
My Plan ... Not for Everyone

My home has three stories, the third being a finished attic at the top of a stairway and with a locking door. At night, I am typically on the second floor.

I have resolved that I will not kill an intruder to save property. Property is insured and can be replaced.

If I determine that an intruder has entered my home, I will grab my cell phone, DVR, and handgun and retreat up to the attic room, where I have prepositioned other weapons. (I cannot go down to escape outside, lest I risk encountering the intruder.) I will call 911 to report a home invasion and tell the dispatcher that I am hunkered down in the attic and well armed. I expect that the dispatcher will remain on the line with me and record the events. Certainly, my DVR will be recording.

If the intruder gets as far as a third floor attic door, I can pretty much eliminate the possibility of an innocent drunk at the wrong house and can reasonably assume that I am in danger for my life or of serious bodily harm. If that door is breached ... well, you can figure it out from here.

This plan works for me, because of the design of my home and my living circumstances. Clearly, it will not work for many. However, the idea of a "panic room" deep inside a home and stocked with "defensive equipment" and a cell phone can buy time for LE to arrive. If you have to fire a weapon, you probably have better justification for doing so than you would by firing through your front door.
 
Last edited:

DocDaddy

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
308
Location
Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA
Shoot to stop the threat!
and
One side of the story is better than two sides of the story in court! ;)

When he broke through my door he "must have grabbed my BUG I keep by the door" so I shot till the threat was no more.




.......--Moderator Note--
We do NOT advocate breaking the law in any way.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Shoot to stop the threat!
and
One side of the story is better than two sides of the story in court! ;)

When he broke through my door he "must have grabbed my BUG I keep by the door" so I shot till the threat was no more.

This is the kind of loose talk that gives law-abiding firearms owners a bad name, and more ammunition for the banners/haters. Purposely refusing to tell the truth, and purposely lying, as well as suggesting that evidence should be tampered with or "created" are just the sorts of things THEY think we do all the time.

Thanks a whole heaping lot for making things just that much harder for everybody else.

stay safe.
 

Citizen

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Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
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Location
Fairfax Co., VA
This is the kind of loose talk that gives law-abiding firearms owners a bad name, and more ammunition for the banners/haters. Purposely refusing to tell the truth, and purposely lying, as well as suggesting that evidence should be tampered with or "created" are just the sorts of things THEY think we do all the time.

Thanks a whole heaping lot for making things just that much harder for everybody else.

stay safe.

+1

And, the "one side of the story" comment implies shooting to kill, rather than shooting to stop. Bad. I know of no self-defense statute or case law that authorizes killing the attacker beyond the defensive stop in order to prevent the attacker's version of the story.
 

DocDaddy

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
308
Location
Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA
Hahaha! Thanks for the good laugh over my morning cup of coffee. I am glad I am not high strung and can see the smiley face in my comment. The smiley face was inserted because I was being silly and no way serious and there is a lot of silliness on here and you guys don’t chastise them. Going back to enjoy my coffee now. Have a good day!
;)
Happy carrying!
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Valhalla
Hahaha! Thanks for the good laugh over my morning cup of coffee. I am glad I am not high strung and can see the smiley face in my comment. The smiley face was inserted because I was being silly and no way serious and there is a lot of silliness on here and you guys don’t chastise them. Going back to enjoy my coffee now. Have a good day!
;)
Happy carrying!

You might want to consider adding a "jk" to your smiley face. All too often the big grin signifies mere glee/joy as opposed to "being silly".

And unfortunately the folks who will take your comment and use it as another example of the bloodlust of firearms owners will completely ignore your smiley face and "jk" if you had used it and your follow-up comments. Which is why my response was, admittedly, fairly knee-jerk. (Heck, if they can be knee-jerk about trying to control me, I can be just as knee-jerk about not giving them free ammunition.)

One of the great things about the Virginia sub-forum is that we are all in this together, and will not only tolerate but encourage a certain level of silliness amongst ourselves. We also, as I have learned to my great gratitude, that we will all come together when the need arises. It's not just that we are law-abiding, but that we work to present ourselves to the public as not tolerating violating the law - especially when it comes to firearms.

Sorry your feelings got hurt by my rant. Hope you now understand why I went off.

stay safe.
 

DocDaddy

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
308
Location
Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA
Skid,
Nah, my feelings didn't get hurt, I am too relaxed of a person to worry about stuff like that. I know we are all adults here and when most people see the smiley they understand what that means, but I do see the point that "kids" (other people with an agenda) can take stuff out of context and run it into the ground.

Happy Carrying!
 
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