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need some clarification on a possible home invasion scenario

MSC 45ACP

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
2,840
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
As mentioned earlier in the thread, the OP should consult VIRGINIA law and other VIRGINIA sources like http://www.virginia1774.org/

It would be nice if those not from VIRGINIA and those unfamiliar with our laws refrained from showing their ( ) * ( ) and their ignorance of "our ways". Just because your state (province, commonwealth, republic or whatever) does it one way, doesn't mean "That's how we do it here..." We happen to enjoy certain RIGHTS and FREEDOMS not available to other parts of the country and world.

Remember to use cites where quoting case law and just because it may be case law in your part of the world, doesn't mean it works in Virginia. Keep in mind Skidmark's situation. Some places are "just different". Fortunately, the rest of the state isn't as corrupt as Surry County. York County has an ELECTED Sheriff that is active in the TEA Party and strongly supports OCDO at public events all over the state.

It would behoove many of you from other parts of the country to study your roots. I often wonder how many of you "out-of-staters" know what happened here in 1607. We've had our share of interesting Statesmen. Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington weren't just "Virginia Farmers" like you probably learned in your 'history' books.

Thank you for playing!
 

Badger Johnson

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Messages
1,213
Location
USA
My home has three stories, the third being a finished attic at the top of a stairway and with a locking door. At night, I am typically on the second floor.

I have resolved that I will not kill an intruder to save property. Property is insured and can be replaced.

Though this 'plan' has a lot of merit, I think it has flaws.

First, a good home SD plan, imo, involves 'layered' defense. That means:
1. Gated entrance - either gated community, or gated driveway with additional detection, perimeter alarms, or video surveillance;
2. Outdoor motion detector lighting;
3. Video monitoring at the front door;
4. Alarms with automatic alerting of authorities;
5. Locked doors and windows (how often do we forget to lock the door!?);
6. Dog;
7. Access to non-lethal methods in addition to carrying a HG on your person;
8. Dedicated concealed HG throughout the house, with easy access if you know where the HG is;
9. Safe room, or some place with bullet resistant walls;
10. DVR/Recorder and Cell phone;
11. Trained up family members;
12. Living in a safe area.

Now we can't all have ALL of these, but since it's likely that one or more layers will fail for one reason or another, they won't all fail at the same time. In your plan you don't mention alarms or substantial door locks or anything else - you may have them so forgive my jumping to conclusions.

Note the new element of adding a non-lethal option. IMO, if you have that you can 'handle' a large number of scenarios that are dangerous but not life-threatening. I think it would be totally permissible if you walked out of your bedroom one morning with your keys and wallet with a pepper spray module in your hand, encountered a strange teenager in a hoodie in your living room holding your DVD player, no obvious weaponry, and sprayed the hell out of him, no questions asked. No jail time, no nothing. With a HG, if you drew on him you could still get your gun confiscated and be arrested (all he has to do is lie).

$.02

PS, your plan also doesn't take into account family members - it can be problematic to gather them up and get them upstairs also. Note I'm not criticizing your plan, just talking about Home SD plans in general using your post as a jumping off point. :)
 
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opencarrypalmtrees

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2011
Messages
59
Location
pumpkinville
my local PD told me the rule of thumb is if someone breaks into your house you give a warning and if they continue into the house you fire until you stop the attack. You tell the jury you were terrified, which you are of course and thats pretty much it. Now of course this is a day time scenario im assuming and of course if its night time this is my opinion of what should be done.


deadly force in the home in virginia
Quote Originally Posted by user from OCDO on Time of Day
The issue presented is whether or not the intruder is a
burglar. You're entitled to presume that he is, if it's night-time, since
the definition of burglary is the breaking and entering into the dwelling
place of another in the night-time with the intention of committing a
felony. It's the intent to commit the felony that you're presuming if you
wake up at one o'clock a.m. with a stranger hovering over your bed. The use
of deadly force is excusable in stopping a serious felony in progress or
stopping one from imminently being committed. The "serious" felonies are
rape, robbery, murder, burglary, and arson. Obvious, as each of these
involves a potential threat to life and limb of innocent persons. If the
intruder comes in during the daytime, he's a trespasser, not a burglar. He
may be guilty of statutory breaking and entering, but that's not burglary.
So you can't use deadly force unless you reasonably apprehend the threat of
an imminent serious bodily injury. You may use such force as is reasonably
necessary to expel the trespasser, including deadly force if the level of
resistence requires it (e.g., he starts waving his machete in your
direction).
 

Jonesy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
416
Location
Alexandria, Virginia, USA
my local PD told me the rule of thumb is if someone breaks into your house you give a warning and if they continue into the house you fire until you stop the attack. You tell the jury you were terrified, which you are of course and thats pretty much it. Now of course this is a day time scenario im assuming and of course if its night time this is my opinion of what should be done.
QUOTE]

I do believe following this advice could result in prison time for you. You cannot use lethal force on an intruder in the day time unless you have a reasonable belief of imminent serious bodily injury. So if the intruder is inside, you give a verbal warning, he continues towards you but is thirty feet away and appears unarmed, you may very well not have a reasonable belief of serious bodily injury depending on all circumstances. You shoot in such a scenario you may be facing serious jail time. I think it is very important to carefully think about such scenarios ahead of time and how to handle them. Reading Virginia caselaw can help alot, and asking questions to one such as User can really help.

I do believe the standard is what a reasonable person would believe in the situation, so telling a jury you were terrified will not help if a prosecutor can show such a belief was not reasonable. Now if the intruder is close and advancing after verbal warning, different sitauation, lethal force likely now more reasonable. The problem is you will not have time to think things through, and the potetial consequences of making the wrong choice are huge.
 
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user

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,516
Location
Northern Piedmont
One aspect of the explanation that SouthernBoy alluded to is the fact that there is a statutory definition of daytime burglary in Virginia. However, there is no case law that I know of that applies the presumption that a burglar at night is at least willing to kill the defenseless sleeping occupants and thus is an automatic candidate for the use of deadly force to daytime burglary. My opinion is that in the daytime, you're still entitled to assume that an intruder intends to commit a felony, but until a court rules on the subject, I'd still say that the use of deadly force is limited by what's reasonable under the circumstances. Note that Virginia's common law definition of the "castle doctrine" allows defense of the home and the curtilage (area immediately surrounding the home in which people are likely to be); that still doesn't grant a "license to kill".

So here's my conclusion: if you reasonably believe, based on objective fact, that defense of self, family, and home requires the use of deadly force, use deadly force to full effect. Otherwise, be ready, willing, and able, but if you recognize that the intruder is a little kid, the Alzheimer's patient from across the street, or even someone who entered with evil intent, but is leaving as fast as he can after having seen your gun, you can't shoot'em. This "shoot to maim" idea is nuts. As so many have already said, you either shoot or you don't shoot; "shooting to maim" is likely to get you convicted of attempted murder.
 
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