Buying first gun! .45 vs 9mm

Grapeshot · Feb 16, 2011

Regarding ballistics - interesting, simple read:

Ammo by the Numbers: What Do All Those Numbers on My Box of Ammo Mean?
http://www.guns.com/ammo-by-numbers-what-do-all-those.html

hrdware · Feb 16, 2011

RXEight said:
...one of the reasons I'm most interested in a Glock, is because of the safe action trigger, which means I don't have a safety to fumble with as I un holster my gun.
Do Sigs have traditional safety?

I don't carry a Glock, but I have the same type of safety. Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. I may get flamed for this, but I carry with the safety off, hammer down so no need to fumble with it as I un-holster.

Edited to add: I consider hammer down to be the hammer against the firing mechanism. If hammer down relates to gravitational position (meaning cocked) then someone please correct me.

sultan62 · Feb 16, 2011

hrdware said:
I don't carry a Glock, but I have the same type of safety. Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. I may get flamed for this, but I carry with the safety off, hammer down so no need to fumble with it as I un-holster.

Edited to add: I consider hammer down to be the hammer against the firing mechanism. If hammer down relates to gravitational position (meaning cocked) then someone please correct me.

I usually say "hammer back" or "cocked" just to clear up possible confusion.

since9 · Feb 17, 2011

hrdware said:
I don't carry a Glock, but I have the same type of safety. Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. I may get flamed for this, but I carry with the safety off, hammer down so no need to fumble with it as I un-holster.

If you also have a round in the chamber, that's Condition Two. You'll get no argument from me, as that's the way I carry all the time.

I consider hammer down to be the hammer against the firing mechanism. If hammer down relates to gravitational position (meaning cocked) then someone please correct me.

Your use of the term "hammer down" is the correct terminology.

Sgt. Kabukiman N.Y.P.D. · Feb 17, 2011

HvyMtl said:
Glocks are pushed a lot (not wrongly) due to the fact they are a lot in use, and are used by many PDs (who get incentives to buy them.) My only concern with most Glocks and some other brand/ models out there (XD?) is the fact you must pull the trigger to break the firearm down for cleaning. IMHO this is a concern, as you must really make absolutely sure the firearm is empty, and pointed at something you dont mind blowing away. As long as you take that precaution and do not slip in your diligence, you will do fine with a Glock.

As a (multiple) Glock owner, I agree. As with all pistols, make certain the gun is unloaded before cleaning/dry firing/etc...

I don't know if it's kosher for me to list a brand name product here, but www.safedirection.com (I have no affiliation, just a satisfied customer) among others sell ballistic pads that you can utilize in the process of unloading your firearm just to make sure. Before I purchased a ballistic pad, I used a couple bags of powdered cement in my basement (doubled up on each other) for dry firing. These were much cheaper that bullet resistant fabric and are probably just about as effective (they don't look as nice, however).

since9 · Feb 18, 2011

Sgt. Kabukiman N.Y.P.D. said:
...ballistic pads that you can utilize in the process of unloading your firearm....

I use a basket full of dirty laundry. Back when I owned a home, I used a 5-gal bucket filled with sand. Most military clearing devices use a steel container filled with sand, and with a narrow opening designed to minimize the chances that a richochet might exit the container.

p.publius · Feb 18, 2011

Safeties and Such

I have a CHP (VA)
When I carry concealed I carry a Glock 19. I can hit center mass at 75 feet of better with it.

When I Open Carry I use a 1911 (Remington Rand, Sig, Kimber depending on the situation) It has a number of "safety" designs I like. but when it comes out of the holster (which it is carried in Condition 1, Cocked & Locked, The safety is off as a natural movement of the thumb. returning it to its holster the safety is moved into the "On" position as a consequence of having to move the thumb out of the way to holster the gun...

Don't get caught up into the functions that your self-defense sidearm has. Practice practice, practice with the gum that feels the most natural in your hand. for me it is the Glock 19 and any 1911.

Sgt. Kabukiman N.Y.P.D. · Feb 18, 2011

since9 said:
I use a basket full of dirty laundry. Back when I owned a home, I used a 5-gal bucket filled with sand. Most military clearing devices use a steel container filled with sand, and with a narrow opening designed to minimize the chances that a richochet might exit the container.

Heh, I like the dirty laundry idea! Hopefully, you never have to explain why there is a single hole going through most of your shirts/pants.

There are alot of creative/cheap things one could use (the 5 gal bucket w/ sand is a great one, I used to use one of these too). Really, you could get away with pointing your firearm at the dirt (if Terra firma is available to you at the time) I just like the ballistic pad as I can just fit it in a drawer as it doesn't take up a lot of space. Also, I don't have to hike my lazy butt into the garage or outside (I think laziness actually has a lot to do with the ballistic pad purchase)....

Ruger95 · Feb 18, 2011

Why do you find it necessary to dry-fire into a ballistic pad, or bucket of sand. I remove my mag and check that the chamber is empty. I then insert some snap caps in the mag, load it into my Ruger and then I visually check to see the red colored snap cap is in the chamber and dry-fire away at the wall. I think that a lot of what is supposedly being safe is unnecessarily redundant. Believe me I'm all for safety and am exceedingly careful but some safety strategies are not universally applicable.

Sgt. Kabukiman N.Y.P.D. · Feb 18, 2011

Ruger95 said:
Why do you find it necessary to dry-fire into a ballistic pad, or bucket of sand. I remove my mag and check that the chamber is empty. I then insert some snap caps in the mag, load it into my Ruger and then I visually check to see the red colored snap cap is in the chamber and dry-fire away at the wall. I think that a lot of what is supposedly being safe is unnecessarily redundant. Believe me I'm all for safety and am exceedingly careful but some safety strategies are not universally applicable.

Sometimes it all comes down to with what you are personally comfortable with. I have two kids under the age of 5 in my house. The use of dry firing into a ballistic pad or sand gives me extra piece of mind even after I have safety checked the weapon. Also there are certain scenarios like when I am decocking a loaded 1911 with the decocking lever. I don't 100% trust my kids lives to any weapon's particular safety mechanisms. Again, it's all about what you are confortable with.

45acpForMe · Feb 18, 2011

Ruger95 said:
Why do you find it necessary to dry-fire into a ballistic pad, or bucket of sand.....

+1

After dropping the magzine and locking the slide open (inspecting the barrel) I don't think I need a bucket of sand to dry fire. I typically don't dry fire my guns though. I DO always point them in a safe direction when unloading though (and the occassional dry fire).

One thing I REALLY like about my H&K USP is that the thumb safety can be on and you can still cycle the slide. There are a couple other guns I have heard of that have this functionality. So you can load/unload all with the safety on and no danger of accidental/negligent discharge. When I go to gun shows and have to disarm and zip tie my pistol I like having that capability.

RXEight · Feb 19, 2011

Nothing wrong with staying safe! Thanks for all the tips! Last week I went to the range, and shot a sub compact Glock .40, a Glock 9mm compact, and a Glock 21, pretty sure that's the compact .45. I enjoyed all, but sub compact is DEF not for me. Just a few days ago, I went back to the range, and shot a Berretta 92, which is 9mm, great gun, but wasn't very satisfied with the way it felt in my hands, as it seemed a tad small. Also, shot a S&W 44 Magnum, I was pretty scared at first, loaded one shot, fired, and fell in love instantly! Went through a whole box of ammo in under 10 minutes! Also, I was almost as accurate with the 44, as I am with a 9mm! It was a great time, and I'm still searching!

j4l · Feb 20, 2011

21 is the full-size .45 for Glock. Not the compact. Compact is the 30/36

Nevada carrier · Feb 20, 2011

If you like Glocks, want higher than average capacity and are not turned off by a larger size of pistol, you may want to consider a Glock 34 in 9x19 or a Glock 35 in .40 S&W. The 34 is standard with 17 rounds or you can get 19 round configurations. Not sure it thats just a but plate extension or a wholly different magazine all together. The 35 is standard with a 15 round magazine or an optional 17 round capacity.

These are technically designed as competition pistols, but for self defense use, they could be just as viable. the longer sight radius could be a huge plus for you is you are looking for the additional accuracy that it may provide..

Firemark · Sep 5, 2011

lots of good and not so good advice on this forum string.

Here are the only really important points

Accuracy is everything-- how the gun feels in your hand to how effectively you can handle its functions to placement of shots. Choose the weapon you are most accurate with. Best tests include single aimed shot, rapid 3 shot groups, and emptying the full mag. recoil will affect your ability to come back to target. chose the weapon that you can control the recoil even with rapid fire multiple shots. This is the closest to real life defensive shooting.

Capacity is vital-- best estimates from documented shoots, 40-60% of all shots fired will miss the target in a defensive handgun battle. Quantity is better than caliber size, more chances to hit your vital target. The largest possible capacity is better. Almost all defensive shoots never get to the reload of a second magazine. (something to think about)

Cost is the factor-- buy the weapon with a caliber you can afford to shoot. If you want to be well trained, budget at least 3600 rounds a year, if you cant afford to buy the ammo, the gun is not worth it, get a caliber you can fiscally support, otherwise you wont shoot it often enough to become profficient.

tim12232 · Sep 6, 2011

Sgt. Kabukiman N.Y.P.D. said:
Sometimes it all comes down to with what you are personally comfortable with. I have two kids under the age of 5 in my house. The use of dry firing into a ballistic pad or sand gives me extra piece of mind even after I have safety checked the weapon. Also there are certain scenarios like when I am decocking a loaded 1911 with the decocking lever. I don't 100% trust my kids lives to any weapon's particular safety mechanisms. Again, it's all about what you are confortable with.

Im having a hard time trying to get where your coming from? First of all, I have had many 1911's I currently own one too, and where is the decocking lever? If I need to unload my weapon, I point the gun in a safe direction, drop the magazine, while the gun is still pointed safely, I push the safety down, and rack the slide, to remove the chambered round, all while keeping the finger well removed and away from the trigger or trigger guard. When that round is out, there is nothing more to be fed, I can than dryfire that weapon all day long?

To the OP, if your going 9mm get the glock "19" If your going 45, get a 1911, best gun out there in millions of peoples opinions! there is a reason a 100 year old gun, is still the best selling gun out there!

Tim

MR Redenck · Sep 6, 2011

45acpForMe said:
Most Sigs are DA/SA and don't have a manual thumb safety. Some models are DAO. You can get some models with a safety but don't know why you would want one unless you got a SA only gun.

The age old argument of caliber. Since you shoot both well it really doesn't matter much. Just use a self defense round (hollow point) whichever you choose.

The advantages for 9mm is that it is cheaper, you can shoot more. Higher round count.

The advantages for 45acp is that a hollowpoint 45 expands more than a hollowpoint in 9mm. 13+1 in a Glock 21 is a pretty good round count for 45acp. I have a FNP-45 that has 15+1.

Also something to consider is that I have heard of police units that have moved away from 9mm (toward 40s&w) because they got tired of having to hit the bad guy 3-4 times before they showed any sign of slowing down. I agree that 40S&W has a snappy recoil and I prefer 45 partly because of the lesser recoil and I shoot it better. 40S&W is a good compromise between energy and capacity. I figure 45acp has been killing bad guys for a 100 years and my Dad used it in WWII and Korea so it is good enough for me.

You could always solve your dilemma by buying both.

AMEN!!
I have recovered 45acp hollow point from the sand as I shot targets. They are as big as a quarter after they mushroom out.
Shoot once and be done with it.

JoshuaJJackson · Sep 6, 2011

MR Redenck said:
AMEN!!
I have recovered 45acp hollow point from the sand as I shot targets. They are as big as a quarter after they mushroom out.
Shoot once and be done with it.

Whatever you end up deciding don't get wrapped up in the caliber. 9m, .40, .45 will all work just as well with quality HP ammo. Buy what you can afford to shoot more of and can do so accurately. The differences are so tiny if the round/weapon/casing wasn't found an autopsy wouldn't be able to tell what caliber was used. Effective rounds on target are more important than caliber selection.

-Bare Gelatin http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf
Caliber--------9mm 147 Gr----40 S&W 180 Gr----45 Auto 230 Gr.
Model---------P9HST2--------P40HST1----------P45HST2
Velocity-------1004-----------1041-------------895
Penetration---12.0"-----------12.0"-------------12.0"
Expansion-----0.85"-----------0.96"-------------0.98"
Retained Wt.--147------------180---------------231
*Federal HST Ammo

If you look at the chart the 147gr HST pentrates 11" in auto glass, the 180gr 14" and the 230gr 10.5"

45acpForMe said:
Also something to consider is that I have heard of police units that have moved away from 9mm (toward 40s&w) because they got tired of having to hit the bad guy 3-4 times before they showed any sign of slowing down.

My understanding was due to the better pentration through auto glass?

RetiredOC · Sep 6, 2011

Grapeshot said:
Recommend what Col. Cooper always promoted: the .45 ACP, best in a 1911 platform.

QFT - Save the 9mm and .40 for the Glocks. When you want a .45 get yourself a 1911!!!

BaconMan · Sep 6, 2011

Cavalryman said:
To me, that sums it up, especially for a first handgun. The truth about "stopping power" is that accurate shot placement trumps everything else. Nothing that you can carry on your belt will have enough power to stop a bad guy if you don't place the shot somewhere vital.

I have to agree with the above statement...."accurate shot placement trumps everything else." :banana:

Buying first gun! .45 vs 9mm

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