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Thread: Ammo in court...

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    Ammo in court...

    I'd been thinking about this before, so I figured I would ask everyone. Is there any documented cases where ammo has come into play for a shooting?

    What I mean, is that say you use the run of the mill hollowpoints in your gun, and you end up shooting and killing someone, in self defense or otherwise. Now what if the opposing council brings up the fact you used HP's and not 'normal' ammo, which are way more harmful to the body? e.g. "In using HP's, he was trying to inflict more harm/kill."
    Last edited by chakragod; 02-13-2011 at 02:19 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran GlockMeisterG21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chakragod View Post
    I'd been thinking about this before, so I figured I would ask everyone. Is there any documented cases where ammo has come into play for a shooting?

    What I mean, is that say you use the run of the mill hollowpoints in your gun, and you end up shooting and killing someone, in self defense or otherwise. Now what if the opposing council brings up the fact you used HP's and not 'normal' ammo, which are way more harmful to the body? e.g. "In using HP's, he was trying to inflict more harm/kill."
    Reply with the fact that you used HPs to help minimize collateral damage in any defensive situation you encountered. If FMJs were used they would have ripped through your attacker and possibly injuring someone else. By using HPs you were in fact being a responsible carrier.

    If you don't like that then use the "Cop/Training" defense. It goes something like this, "I carry two reloads and use HP ammo because that's what I was trained to do. Most LEO's also use the same amount of reloads and use HP ammo. Is my life worth less than a LEOs? Do I not have the same right to defend myself as they do?"
    “The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair.” — Col. Jeff Cooper, GUNS & AMMO, January 2002

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    First of all, your attorney should be speaking for you. Secondly, if HP is good enough for LEO, it's good enough for me.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Yes, I'm pretty sure that has been cases where the use of certain types of ammunition have come into question and used against the victim in legal proceedings. I would check Massad Ayoob's writings for this as a starter. And I would start your search by suggesting that handloads and exotic types (both exotic names and designs) are the loads that have been the subject of prosecution.

    As an aside, I'm also pretty sure that New Jersey still bans the use of hollow point ammunition for citizens' self defense, but I think they may be alone in their nonsensical law. If you use quality name brand ammunition which is both legal and acceptable in your state, you should be fine.
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    http://www.icarry.org/ftopict-877-.html

    6 or 7 years ago Harold Fish was convicted partly because he had his gun loaded with hollow-point ammunition.
    Later he was granted a new trial because the laws of self-defense had changed in his state. (Illinois, I believe)

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The Black Talon debacle was front page news for a while - some prosecutors called them "cop killer" bullets - gross distortion, but some of the public drank the Kool-Aid.

    "Winchester officials used research to show that the Black Talon was no more deadly4 than any of the other hollow point bullets on the market, but they pulled the ammunition from the shelves to quiet public concern. Black Talon was the first product Winchester had ever removed from the market for reasons other than manufacturing defects in the almost 130-year history of the company."
    http://www.thegunzone.com/black-talon.html
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    Regular Member VetteFreakC5's Avatar
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    and contrary to popular belief, the black coating on black talon bullets was NOT teflon. The current Winchester Ranger T is a direct descendent of the Black Talon. Hell, you can even still get boxes of Black Talons at gun shows and sites like gunbroker

    I do find it quite funny, and a little disturbing, that the use of hollow point or expanding rounds are forbidden for uise in war becauise they are "inhumane" and "are designed to cause undo pain and suffering"
    "American parachutists -- devils in baggy pants, are less than 100m from my outpost line. I can't sleep at night; they pop up from nowhere and we never know when, or how, they will strike next. Seems like the black hearted devils are everywhere...." Found in the diary of a German Officer who opposed the 504 PIR on the Anzio beachhead in WWII

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    I still use Black Talons in my carry guns,
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VetteFreakC5 View Post
    and contrary to popular belief, the black coating on black talon bullets was NOT teflon. The current Winchester Ranger T is a direct descendent of the Black Talon. Hell, you can even still get boxes of Black Talons at gun shows and sites like gunbroker

    I do find it quite funny, and a little disturbing, that the use of hollow point or expanding rounds are forbidden for uise in war becauise they are "inhumane" and "are designed to cause undo pain and suffering"
    Some units are authorized special ammunition i.e. hollow point, expanding.

    Re full metal jacket only, I have read that the US technically didn't sign that part of the Hague Convention, but we generally adhere to it.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    I use Federal HSTs or Tactical Bonded. Both are hollow point bullets. I don't want over penetration and harming or killing some one on the other side of my target by mistake.
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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    A good defense attorney would object to any introduction of ammunition type as irrelevant and possibly immaterial, which it is. Affirmative defense for self defense use of a deadly weapon is not mitigated by 'type' of weapon. The entrenching tool the Green Berets use is often employed by them as a weapon. If you were justified via self defense for killing a threat with a shovel, whether it was a surplus entrenching tool or the shovel your wife uses to plant daiseys is a fact of no issue.

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    First of all, your attorney should be speaking for you

    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    First of all, your attorney should be speaking for you. Secondly, if HP is good enough for LEO, it's good enough for me.
    Yup! STHU without proper legal representation. Let the lawyer do his job to the best of their ability without you making it harder for them.

    On another note, I originally put S-T-F-U instead of STHU and the forum edited it out ? Really, does WTF get edited out too?
    Last edited by Nutczak; 02-17-2011 at 05:19 PM.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    Yup! STHU without proper legal representation. Let the lawyer do his job to the best of their ability without you making it harder for them.

    On another note, I originally put S-T-F-U instead of STHU and the forum edited it out ? Really, does WTF get edited out too?
    Evidently not.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    Yup! STHU without proper legal representation. Let the lawyer do his job to the best of their ability without you making it harder for them.

    On another note, I originally put S-T-F-U instead of STHU and the forum edited it out ? Really, does WTF get edited out too?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Evidently not.
    Not yet.

    I think the intent and purpose relates to the very broad slice of the public reading these forums. That and I was always admonished that cursing, vulgarity and slang usage was a sign of not possessing a good vocabulary or being lazy. No flame intended, seriously.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not yet.

    I think the intent and purpose relates to the very broad slice of the public reading these forums. That and I was always admonished that cursing, vulgarity and slang usage was a sign of not possessing a good vocabulary or being lazy. No flame intended, seriously.
    Sometimes, irrespective of you vocabulary/education/breeding, nothing says it quite as well as, e.g., '**** schumer.' Keeping in mind that not capitalizing the first letter of a last name indicates you hold that person beneath contempt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Sometimes, irrespective of you vocabulary/education/breeding, nothing says it quite as well as, e.g., '**** schumer.' Keeping in mind that not capitalizing the first letter of a last name indicates you hold that person beneath contempt.
    Actually, something always says it better than the two-word sentence that you suggested. Your quote only communicates disdain for the person. It tells us nothing about you, him, or why you feel about him the way you do.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Sometimes, irrespective of you vocabulary/education/breeding, nothing says it quite as well as, e.g., '**** schumer.' Keeping in mind that not capitalizing the first letter of a last name indicates you hold that person beneath contempt.
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Actually, something always says it better than the two-word sentence that you suggested. Your quote only communicates disdain for the person. It tells us nothing about you, him, or why you feel about him the way you do.
    Equally important I think is the way it reflects on the character of the writer, and collectively OCDO, as perceived by the general public. It is a war of public relations and convincing others to embrace our POV.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Equally important I think is the way it reflects on the character of the writer, and collectively OCDO, as perceived by the general public. It is a war of public relations and convincing others to embrace our POV.
    There is also a war, internal to the person, of achieving the feeling of smugness versus the much less glamorous result of swaying of another's heart and mind just a few scant degrees. Feeling smug and affecting the thinking process of another are usually mutually exclusive.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    There is also a war, internal to the person, of achieving the feeling of smugness versus the much less glamorous result of swaying of another's heart and mind just a few scant degrees. Feeling smug and affecting the thinking process of another are usually mutually exclusive.
    Disagree. There are times when the imperative statement says it like nothing else can. It's not meant to convince others, win hearts and minds, or fill in for a lack of articulative ability. It is what it is. Simple, elegant and unequivical in its meaning. Generally best used as a summation after a discussion of the relevant points of the argument. Clean, innocent, ad hominem attack. Assuming the user has presented his bona fides as to communication skill, a wonderful sense of peace and closure will be the ultimate reward for its usage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Disagree. There are times when the imperative statement says it like nothing else can. It's not meant to convince others, win hearts and minds, or fill in for a lack of articulative ability. It is what it is. Simple, elegant and unequivical in its meaning. Generally best used as a summation after a discussion of the relevant points of the argument. Clean, innocent, ad hominem attack. Assuming the user has presented his bona fides as to communication skill, a wonderful sense of peace and closure will be the ultimate reward for its usage.
    And it will still change no one's mind. Except maybe the person who overhears and was on the fence, but now has a cemented opinion of the issuer of the "imperative" and all open carriers.

    I have no expectation of changing your mind on the matter. However, there are many who will overhear this conversation. That is why I have treated you with respect and not hurled a smart-aleck response your way. It is their minds I hope to sway.

    To continue this conversation would only serve to annoy them, so, having fully made my point, I will now stop.

    All the best to you. 'Til we chat again.
    Last edited by eye95; 02-22-2011 at 11:55 AM.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    And it will still change no one's mind. Except maybe the person who overhears and was on the fence, but now has a cemented opinion of the issuer of the "imperative" and all open carriers.

    I have no expectation of changing your mind on the matter. However, there are many who will overhear this conversation. That is why I have treated you with respect and not hurled a smart-aleck response your way. It is their minds I hope to sway.

    To continue this conversation would only serve to annoy them, so, having fully made my point, I will now stop.

    All the best to you. 'Til we chat again.
    I would hope they recognize a certain amount of tongue in cheek in my above comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    I would hope they recognize a certain amount of tongue in cheek in my above comment.
    If you were not serious in your comment, I stand corrected and apologize for assuming that you meant it the way you said it. My sarcasm detection device must be on the fritz.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    "...a wonderful sense of peace and closure will be the ultimate reward for its usage."


    Come on...that was kind of obvious, wasn't it?

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