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Thread: Home defense ammo

  1. #1
    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
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    Exclamation Home defense ammo

    As of late I find myself un-satisfied with the use of traditional Hollow point ammunition. I have been fewing ballistic charts, and effects of various JHP rounds through ballistic jelly. I see little to no differance in actual effectiveness. Recently I have discovered some of what I consider "Non-traditional" home defense rounds. Since I have a .45acp these C2f rounds look rather impressive.

    http://www.fsdip.com/website/VBRBelg...0/Default.aspx

    Here is a chart I found that shows some handgun rounds. most of which seem to be out of or used in europe. let me know what you guys think. Or if you have any insight on any of these or other alternatives to conventional home/personal defense ammunition.

    http://media.photobucket.com/image/b...typelist-1.jpg
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    While non-traditional rounds might be more ballistically or "stopping-power" effective, I would suggest you consider the effectiveness of telling a jury that you use ordinary, boring Modern Factory Hollowpoint Self-Defense Ammunition exactly like the rounds carried by both the local cops and the bailiff - of the court where you're being tried by a particularly zealous prosecutor, after a late-night incident in your living room ...

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    Dead is dead, what difference does it make what kind of bullet you use? Chances are, if it's in your living room that you're doing the shooting, the case will never go to court anyhow. "Castle Doctrine" is in effect. Get a grip there "Ambushbug"
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    "Castle Doctrine" is not in effect in every state...

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    That C2f round looks like it would not be very accurate to me.

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Thanks, I'll take my hollowpoints. Also for .45.
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    Just my ideas.

    Well I have thought long and hard about the "best" self defense ammo. For several reasons it seems to me that one should get as close as reasonably possibly to a one shot stop. This is not about caliber but about energy delivery to the target. Yup, everybody has a favorite hollow point and there are tons of good ones. Hornady explains that a common problem with hollowpoints is that the point "cuts" out a piece of fabric and fills the hollow point with someting that will not exert outward pressure to make the bullet expand. Possibly the bullet will travel through the target farther than ideal, fail to deliver all it's energy, and possibly exit and do damage else where. Seems reasonable with a near mis/flesh wound. Hornady's solution ( Critical Defense) is to fill the point with an expanding/compressing stuff that forces the bullet to expand regardless of the composition of what it strikes. I'm no ballastic engineer but it makes sense to me. I have no time/ desire/money to test on my own. So I am forced to use logic and common sense. Hornady makes sense to me. Problem, they don't chamer perfectly first drop of the slide ( in my Kimber) I found a work-around but was crucified on another forum for my solution. I use Hornady Critical Defense, a big name to possibly share a legal burden, bullet construction seems logical. Works for me.
    Last edited by timezoneguy; 02-23-2011 at 02:24 PM.

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    I am using CORBON Pow'R Ball 165 Gr +P JHP in .45 ACPfor my 1911 and I love these rounds. They are hot rounds and you must have a gun that can handle the increased pressure. This round was originally designed to eliminate feeding problems in pistols that would choke on the new large mouthed JHP bullets. They are quiet expensive at 38 dollars for a 20 round box but it is well worth the price. The ball also allows it to perform like FMJ and keeping material from clogging up the hollow point and making it ineffective. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qB_FALHS4c
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFYFM...eature=related
    Velocity 1225 fps.
    Energy 550 ft/lbs.


    -Reliable feeding
    -Consistent reliable expansion
    -Deeper soft tissue penetration
    -Quicker recovery for follow up shots
    Last edited by zack991; 02-14-2011 at 04:03 PM.
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  9. #9
    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    Them faincy Euro-pean bullets ain't Amurican!

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    The .45C2F152 bullet is provided with a Kevlar catcher to prevent the penetration of soft body armor. The Kevlar catcher provides the bullet with a big front area and a hollow point construction with a weak side. This Kevlar catcher collapses by impact at a high resistance like a soft body armor. This collapsing slow downs the bullet and prevent the penetration of a soft bullet proof vest.

    The .45 Auto C2F cartridge is not able to penetrate 22 layers of Kevlar.
    Sounds like it is designed with Europeans in mind.

    Me, I plan to penetrate those 22 layers, if need be.

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    I see a few issues with the testing done for this bullet. I see bare gelatin being used to simulate the possibility of an assailant having his/her hands in the way of a shot. This makes very little sense, since you are likely to strike bone and cause early fragmentation or tumble, resulting in poor performance on the other side. The other issue I see is a lack of testing involving barriers and automotive glass.

    It almost seems like this was designed with the idea of wounding vital organs more than stopping or killing. The only sure stop is one that inflict tremendous damage to the CNS, therefore stopping the assailant instantly with no reflex action coming into play. It also seems to penetrate quite a bit before actually fragmenting and making a y shaped cavity. That seems a bit odd to me since you reach vital organs after a few inches of penetration.

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    I prefer to buy a pig torso from the butcher to test my ammo and its cheaper than buying the ballistic gel. Now I do this once a year if I really want to test my ammo, nothing like real flesh to test ammo and it removes the possibility that the gel could not be correctly made.
    Last edited by zack991; 02-14-2011 at 06:32 PM.
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    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irish52084 View Post
    I see a few issues with the testing done for this bullet. I see bare gelatin being used to simulate the possibility of an assailant having his/her hands in the way of a shot. This makes very little sense, since you are likely to strike bone and cause early fragmentation or tumble, resulting in poor performance on the other side. The other issue I see is a lack of testing involving barriers and automotive glass.

    It almost seems like this was designed with the idea of wounding vital organs more than stopping or killing. The only sure stop is one that inflict tremendous damage to the CNS, therefore stopping the assailant instantly with no reflex action coming into play. It also seems to penetrate quite a bit before actually fragmenting and making a y shaped cavity. That seems a bit odd to me since you reach vital organs after a few inches of penetration.
    FYI dont stop reading the article after you see the first few pictures. If you read all the way to the bottom they shoot it throught 22 layes of clothing, then spareribs and then the bullet jello. Fragmentation is seen on the ribs and rapid arc pattern immediately after. Also you mentioned it seemed to be designed to damage vital organs. If you read the article it actually states the rounds purpose is to widen the temporary canal made by a bullet passing through the body. This larger "temporary canal" means more CNS is effected and forms a sort of internal shockwave. Thus doing alot more damage then just what the bullet actually hits.

    marshaul
    The .45C2F152 bullet is provided with a Kevlar catcher to prevent the penetration of soft body armor. The Kevlar catcher provides the bullet with a big front area and a hollow point construction with a weak side. This Kevlar catcher collapses by impact at a high resistance like a soft body armor. This collapsing slow downs the bullet and prevent the penetration of a soft bullet proof vest.

    The .45 Auto C2F cartridge is not able to penetrate 22 layers of Kevlar.
    Sounds like it is designed with Europeans in mind.

    Me, I plan to penetrate those 22 layers, if need be.
    #1 I would question your reasoning skills if you are considering an armed confrentation with a LEO. Shooting(or attempting) a LEO is almost certainly signing your own death warrant. I havent heard of too many "Cop Killers" making it to trial.

    #2 if your referring to some sort of "People vs. Govt" confrentation I would like to remind you that LEO and even most of the military is likely to side with the people. The recent events in Egypt are a great example.

    #3 regarding you shooting through 22 layers of kevlar... I am not sure what your state laws are regarding full fledged AP rounds are, but I suspect they are not available to you. Most "Body armor" worn by LEO, Paramilitary, or military have not only 22 layers of Kevlar buy also a 1/2-1" steel plate. So unless you plan to make your own AP rounds or plan on using something to the ting of a .338 Lapua or .50BMG, I doubt your attemps will be fruitful. I am not trying to insult you, or downplay your personal beliefs. I simply want to keep you from doing something silly. Killing LEO is a great way for the 2A to get stripped and regulated. Cheers mate!
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    Regular Member VetteFreakC5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevinWKuska View Post
    Most "Body armor" worn by LEO, Paramilitary, or military have not only 22 layers of Kevlar buy also a 1/2-1" steel plate. !
    Steel plate has not been used since the early 90's....all the ballistic plates in use today are made from a ceramic composite. The ESAPI plates currently in use are designed to stop 7.62 AP ammunition. the regular SAPI plates are designed to protect against up to 7.26 non-AP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_A...tective_Insert
    "American parachutists -- devils in baggy pants, are less than 100m from my outpost line. I can't sleep at night; they pop up from nowhere and we never know when, or how, they will strike next. Seems like the black hearted devils are everywhere...." Found in the diary of a German Officer who opposed the 504 PIR on the Anzio beachhead in WWII

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    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VetteFreakC5 View Post
    Steel plate has not been used since the early 90's....all the ballistic plates in use today are made from a ceramic composite. The ESAPI plates currently in use are designed to stop 7.62 AP ammunition. the regular SAPI plates are designed to protect against up to 7.26 non-AP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_A...tective_Insert
    Thanks for the correction. I have seen the plates but never really payed attention to if they were still steel. Good to know.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevinWKuska View Post
    #1 I would question your reasoning skills if you are considering an armed confrentation with a LEO. Shooting(or attempting) a LEO is almost certainly signing your own death warrant. I havent heard of too many "Cop Killers" making it to trial.

    #2 if your referring to some sort of "People vs. Govt" confrentation I would like to remind you that LEO and even most of the military is likely to side with the people. The recent events in Egypt are a great example.
    Woah, way to dive headfirst off the deep end.

    When did I say anything about shooting cops?

    I wasn't imaging any scenarios. I haven't envisioned what kind of bad guy might attack me wearing 22 layers of kevlar, only that if one does, I'm not going to have planned ahead of time to be totally unable to defeat him.

    #3 regarding you shooting through 22 layers of kevlar... I am not sure what your state laws are regarding full fledged AP rounds are, but I suspect they are not available to you.
    Last edited by marshaul; 02-14-2011 at 11:00 PM.

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    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
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    12 gauge buckshot is my home defense round. I carry a 45 for personal defense when I am not at home.

  18. #18
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevinWKuska View Post
    #1 I would question your reasoning skills if you are considering an armed confrentation with a LEO. Shooting(or attempting) a LEO is almost certainly signing your own death warrant. I havent heard of too many "Cop Killers" making it to trial.

    #2 if your referring to some sort of "People vs. Govt" confrentation I would like to remind you that LEO and even most of the military is likely to side with the people. The recent events in Egypt are a great example.

    #3 regarding you shooting through 22 layers of kevlar... I am not sure what your state laws are regarding full fledged AP rounds are, but I suspect they are not available to you. Most "Body armor" worn by LEO, Paramilitary, or military have not only 22 layers of Kevlar buy also a 1/2-1" steel plate. So unless you plan to make your own AP rounds or plan on using something to the ting of a .338 Lapua or .50BMG, I doubt your attemps will be fruitful. I am not trying to insult you, or downplay your personal beliefs. I simply want to keep you from doing something silly. Killing LEO is a great way for the 2A to get stripped and regulated. Cheers mate!
    You are the only one talking about shooting LEOs. Take a look around. Read all the posts. Kevlar does not imply Cop.
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    [QUOTE=DevinWKuska;1467667]FYI dont stop reading the article after you see the first few pictures. If you read all the way to the bottom they shoot it throught 22 layes of clothing, then spareribs and then the bullet jello. Fragmentation is seen on the ribs and rapid arc pattern immediately after. Also you mentioned it seemed to be designed to damage vital organs. If you read the article it actually states the rounds purpose is to widen the temporary canal made by a bullet passing through the body. This larger "temporary canal" means more CNS is effected and forms a sort of internal shockwave. Thus doing alot more damage then just what the bullet actually hits.

    I did read the full article. I also understand the thinking behind a bullet that fragments into 2 parts and creates more area of effect on vital organs. When I referenced CNS, I was trying to say that in order to end a persons life instantly you need to sever the connection o the CNS to the body. There is roughly a T shaped target on the face that is a straight line up from the lower teeth to just below the line of the eyebrows and across the width of the eyes. This T area is in direct line with the brain stem and will most likely cause an instant death when a bullet passes through in a straight line. If your bullet fragments into 2 pieces of equal mass you are less likely to make a fight stopping CNS hit, as they lose momentum and are less likely to penetrate dense bone.

    I have watched high power rifle bullets that are designed to expand rapidly and separate into 2-3 pieces perform amazingly well, but I have also seem them be very sub-par in situations where shot angle isn't perfect of velocities are not in the correct range.

    The energy created by the 45acp is not sufficient to cause a "shock wave" stoppage as some more powerful calibers are able. This type of energy dump is usually associated with high powered rifles firing large bullets at 3000+fps. Even in those types of rifle rounds, complete penetration of a human being would occur 99+% of the time and the energy dump would be an almost null factor.

    I don't dispute that this new planned fragmentation bullet might very well be a viable option for defense, I'm just trying to point out some possible issues. Also, never forget that selling a product often means creatively phrasing it's shortcomings.

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    Git-R-Done type ammo for a 40 Cal.

    I use a 40 cal Smith and Wesson and from what I have found I like two types of ammo. and I load every other one for greater self defense.
    One with a Triple Expansion Being a Hydra shok, and the other having a thick clothing penetration being a 40 S&W 165 gr. FTX® CRITICAL DEFENSE®

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...=1&FORM=IDFRIR

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...61&FORM=IDFRIR

    This one is a Video showing on a ballistic jell but only a 9mm Hydra Shok, it impressive. Imagine a 40 cal with this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i11C...eature=related
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I haven't envisioned what kind of bad guy might attack me wearing 22 layers of kevlar, only that if one does, I'm not going to have planned ahead of time to be totally unable to defeat him.
    "Two to the heart, one to the head." That's what my USAF range instructors always told me. When accompanied by a prime hostile target, an unKevlared face might be where one needs to aim.

    If the face is covered, aim elsewhere.
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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Home Defense Ammo vs. marksmanship

    Having the right rounds in your pistol is secondary. Your PRIMARY focus should be MARKSMANSHIP and nothing but! You can have standard ball ammunition loaded in a .22 and 'get the job done' with a single round and proper marksmanship. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend keeping the ol' Ruger Mk1 as a primary home defense pistol. If you have a short-barreled pistol (that loses a LOT of velocity with regular rounds), I would recommend ammo designed for short barrels that a few manufacturers have put out there.

    Interesting article on the subject: http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/

    More important than ammo: MARKSMANSHIP. How many of you practice the Mozambique Drill with 3" x 5" cards on a human silhouette target? Can you do it under all lighting conditions and/or after sprinting 20 yards then doing 10 pushups (to stimulate the ol' ticker)? If you're physically able, then I would suggest practicing that. Walk before you run (literally). Learn proper marksmanship skills, then add the 'stressors'. You won't learn marksmanship at 3 or 7 yards, though. If you can consistently keep your rounds on a 3" x 5" card at 25 yards, then you're familiar with "proper marksmanship". That's a good start. If you can shoot at 25 yards, you increase your chances of hitting what you aim at when you're 7 yards away. 3 yards is up close and personal. That's another class entirely and you should take some advanced marksmanship courses for that.

    Support your local NRA or military-trained marksmanship instructor and get instruction from a REAL instructor rather than well-meaning Uncle Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob.
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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    Having the right rounds in your pistol is secondary. Your PRIMARY focus should be MARKSMANSHIP and nothing but! You can have standard ball ammunition loaded in a .22 and 'get the job done' with a single round and proper marksmanship. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend keeping the ol' Ruger Mk1 as a primary home defense pistol. If you have a short-barreled pistol (that loses a LOT of velocity with regular rounds), I would recommend ammo designed for short barrels that a few manufacturers have put out there.

    Interesting article on the subject: http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/

    More important than ammo: MARKSMANSHIP. How many of you practice the Mozambique Drill with 3" x 5" cards on a human silhouette target? Can you do it under all lighting conditions and/or after sprinting 20 yards then doing 10 pushups (to stimulate the ol' ticker)? If you're physically able, then I would suggest practicing that. Walk before you run (literally). Learn proper marksmanship skills, then add the 'stressors'. You won't learn marksmanship at 3 or 7 yards, though. If you can consistently keep your rounds on a 3" x 5" card at 25 yards, then you're familiar with "proper marksmanship". That's a good start. If you can shoot at 25 yards, you increase your chances of hitting what you aim at when you're 7 yards away. 3 yards is up close and personal. That's another class entirely and you should take some advanced marksmanship courses for that.

    Support your local NRA or military-trained marksmanship instructor and get instruction from a REAL instructor rather than well-meaning Uncle Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob.
    For some reason I'm picturing that karate instructor from Napoleon Dynamite.

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    Regular Member VetteFreakC5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    Having the right rounds in your pistol is secondary. Your PRIMARY focus should be MARKSMANSHIP and nothing but! You can have standard ball ammunition loaded in a .22 and 'get the job done' with a single round and proper marksmanship. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend keeping the ol' Ruger Mk1 as a primary home defense pistol. If you have a short-barreled pistol (that loses a LOT of velocity with regular rounds), I would recommend ammo designed for short barrels that a few manufacturers have put out there.

    Interesting article on the subject: http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/

    More important than ammo: MARKSMANSHIP. How many of you practice the Mozambique Drill with 3" x 5" cards on a human silhouette target? Can you do it under all lighting conditions and/or after sprinting 20 yards then doing 10 pushups (to stimulate the ol' ticker)? If you're physically able, then I would suggest practicing that. Walk before you run (literally). Learn proper marksmanship skills, then add the 'stressors'. You won't learn marksmanship at 3 or 7 yards, though. If you can consistently keep your rounds on a 3" x 5" card at 25 yards, then you're familiar with "proper marksmanship". That's a good start. If you can shoot at 25 yards, you increase your chances of hitting what you aim at when you're 7 yards away. 3 yards is up close and personal. That's another class entirely and you should take some advanced marksmanship courses for that.

    Support your local NRA or military-trained marksmanship instructor and get instruction from a REAL instructor rather than well-meaning Uncle Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob.
    I agree with most of what you have said. Yes, marksmanship is important, but a lot of it goes out the window in close quarters, ie inside 25' and under they physchological and physiological effects of combat. Training under "stress" of physical activity can help, but without the actual simulation of combat you cannot really practice your actions during it.

    I know many very good marksman who can't hit a target for **** under extreme stres- their marksmanship did them no good. It is estimated only 20% of police officers rounds fired actually hit their intended target for these very same reasons.

    I would recommend to everyone to take some form of combat pistol class by instructors who are combat proven. Where they can more accurately simulate the various types of stress that one will experience in a self defense shooting situation.
    "American parachutists -- devils in baggy pants, are less than 100m from my outpost line. I can't sleep at night; they pop up from nowhere and we never know when, or how, they will strike next. Seems like the black hearted devils are everywhere...." Found in the diary of a German Officer who opposed the 504 PIR on the Anzio beachhead in WWII

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    Curious as to the OP. Upon what is this dissatisfaction with HP's based? Have you had to use some for thier intended purpose,and they failed you? Or is it feeding/reliability problems? Punching holes in paper targets @ the range with HP's doesnt exactly give any real impressions of their effectiveness.
    And, with HP's if they do fail to expand for one reason or other, at worst, they merely act as FMJs...to which many a battlefield foe has fallen, sooo....

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