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Home defense ammo

DevinWKuska

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
300
Location
Spanaway
:confused: As of late I find myself un-satisfied with the use of traditional Hollow point ammunition. I have been fewing ballistic charts, and effects of various JHP rounds through ballistic jelly. I see little to no differance in actual effectiveness. Recently I have discovered some of what I consider "Non-traditional" home defense rounds. Since I have a .45acp these C2f rounds look rather impressive.

http://www.fsdip.com/website/VBRBel...5AutoC2Fgelatinimpacts/tabid/380/Default.aspx

Here is a chart I found that shows some handgun rounds. most of which seem to be out of or used in europe. let me know what you guys think. Or if you have any insight on any of these or other alternatives to conventional home/personal defense ammunition.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/bullet caliber chart/DKconfiguration/typelist-1.jpg
 

AmbushBug

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
62
Location
Las Vegas, NV
While non-traditional rounds might be more ballistically or "stopping-power" effective, I would suggest you consider the effectiveness of telling a jury that you use ordinary, boring Modern Factory Hollowpoint Self-Defense Ammunition exactly like the rounds carried by both the local cops and the bailiff - of the court where you're being tried by a particularly zealous prosecutor, after a late-night incident in your living room ...
 

KansasMustang

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
1,005
Location
Herington, Kansas, USA
Dead is dead, what difference does it make what kind of bullet you use? Chances are, if it's in your living room that you're doing the shooting, the case will never go to court anyhow. "Castle Doctrine" is in effect. Get a grip there "Ambushbug"
 

timezoneguy

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
17
Location
Boise, Id
Just my ideas.

Well I have thought long and hard about the "best" self defense ammo. For several reasons it seems to me that one should get as close as reasonably possibly to a one shot stop. This is not about caliber but about energy delivery to the target. Yup, everybody has a favorite hollow point and there are tons of good ones. Hornady explains that a common problem with hollowpoints is that the point "cuts" out a piece of fabric and fills the hollow point with someting that will not exert outward pressure to make the bullet expand. Possibly the bullet will travel through the target farther than ideal, fail to deliver all it's energy, and possibly exit and do damage else where. Seems reasonable with a near mis/flesh wound. Hornady's solution ( Critical Defense) is to fill the point with an expanding/compressing stuff that forces the bullet to expand regardless of the composition of what it strikes. I'm no ballastic engineer but it makes sense to me. I have no time/ desire/money to test on my own. So I am forced to use logic and common sense. Hornady makes sense to me. Problem, they don't chamer perfectly first drop of the slide ( in my Kimber) I found a work-around but was crucified on another forum for my solution. I use Hornady Critical Defense, a big name to possibly share a legal burden, bullet construction seems logical. Works for me.
 
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zack991

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
1,535
Location
Ohio, USA
I am using CORBON Pow'R Ball 165 Gr +P JHP in .45 ACPfor my 1911 and I love these rounds. They are hot rounds and you must have a gun that can handle the increased pressure. This round was originally designed to eliminate feeding problems in pistols that would choke on the new large mouthed JHP bullets. They are quiet expensive at 38 dollars for a 20 round box but it is well worth the price. The ball also allows it to perform like FMJ and keeping material from clogging up the hollow point and making it ineffective. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qB_FALHS4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFYFMkbGzwQ&feature=related
Velocity 1225 fps.
Energy 550 ft/lbs.


-Reliable feeding
-Consistent reliable expansion
-Deeper soft tissue penetration
-Quicker recovery for follow up shots
 
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marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
The .45C2F152 bullet is provided with a Kevlar catcher to prevent the penetration of soft body armor. The Kevlar catcher provides the bullet with a big front area and a hollow point construction with a weak side. This Kevlar catcher collapses by impact at a high resistance like a soft body armor. This collapsing slow downs the bullet and prevent the penetration of a soft bullet proof vest.

The .45 Auto C2F cartridge is not able to penetrate 22 layers of Kevlar.

Sounds like it is designed with Europeans in mind.

Me, I plan to penetrate those 22 layers, if need be.
 

irish52084

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Messages
285
Location
Puyallup< WA
I see a few issues with the testing done for this bullet. I see bare gelatin being used to simulate the possibility of an assailant having his/her hands in the way of a shot. This makes very little sense, since you are likely to strike bone and cause early fragmentation or tumble, resulting in poor performance on the other side. The other issue I see is a lack of testing involving barriers and automotive glass.

It almost seems like this was designed with the idea of wounding vital organs more than stopping or killing. The only sure stop is one that inflict tremendous damage to the CNS, therefore stopping the assailant instantly with no reflex action coming into play. It also seems to penetrate quite a bit before actually fragmenting and making a y shaped cavity. That seems a bit odd to me since you reach vital organs after a few inches of penetration.
 

zack991

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
1,535
Location
Ohio, USA
I prefer to buy a pig torso from the butcher to test my ammo and its cheaper than buying the ballistic gel. Now I do this once a year if I really want to test my ammo, nothing like real flesh to test ammo and it removes the possibility that the gel could not be correctly made.
 
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DevinWKuska

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
300
Location
Spanaway
I see a few issues with the testing done for this bullet. I see bare gelatin being used to simulate the possibility of an assailant having his/her hands in the way of a shot. This makes very little sense, since you are likely to strike bone and cause early fragmentation or tumble, resulting in poor performance on the other side. The other issue I see is a lack of testing involving barriers and automotive glass.

It almost seems like this was designed with the idea of wounding vital organs more than stopping or killing. The only sure stop is one that inflict tremendous damage to the CNS, therefore stopping the assailant instantly with no reflex action coming into play. It also seems to penetrate quite a bit before actually fragmenting and making a y shaped cavity. That seems a bit odd to me since you reach vital organs after a few inches of penetration.

FYI dont stop reading the article after you see the first few pictures. If you read all the way to the bottom they shoot it throught 22 layes of clothing, then spareribs and then the bullet jello. Fragmentation is seen on the ribs and rapid arc pattern immediately after. Also you mentioned it seemed to be designed to damage vital organs. If you read the article it actually states the rounds purpose is to widen the temporary canal made by a bullet passing through the body. This larger "temporary canal" means more CNS is effected and forms a sort of internal shockwave. Thus doing alot more damage then just what the bullet actually hits.

marshaul
The .45C2F152 bullet is provided with a Kevlar catcher to prevent the penetration of soft body armor. The Kevlar catcher provides the bullet with a big front area and a hollow point construction with a weak side. This Kevlar catcher collapses by impact at a high resistance like a soft body armor. This collapsing slow downs the bullet and prevent the penetration of a soft bullet proof vest.

The .45 Auto C2F cartridge is not able to penetrate 22 layers of Kevlar.
Sounds like it is designed with Europeans in mind.

Me, I plan to penetrate those 22 layers, if need be.

#1 I would question your reasoning skills if you are considering an armed confrentation with a LEO. Shooting(or attempting) a LEO is almost certainly signing your own death warrant. I havent heard of too many "Cop Killers" making it to trial.

#2 if your referring to some sort of "People vs. Govt" confrentation I would like to remind you that LEO and even most of the military is likely to side with the people. The recent events in Egypt are a great example.

#3 regarding you shooting through 22 layers of kevlar... I am not sure what your state laws are regarding full fledged AP rounds are, but I suspect they are not available to you. Most "Body armor" worn by LEO, Paramilitary, or military have not only 22 layers of Kevlar buy also a 1/2-1" steel plate. So unless you plan to make your own AP rounds or plan on using something to the ting of a .338 Lapua or .50BMG, I doubt your attemps will be fruitful. I am not trying to insult you, or downplay your personal beliefs. I simply want to keep you from doing something silly. Killing LEO is a great way for the 2A to get stripped and regulated. Cheers mate!
 

VetteFreakC5

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Messages
25
Location
FT Bragg, NC
Most "Body armor" worn by LEO, Paramilitary, or military have not only 22 layers of Kevlar buy also a 1/2-1" steel plate. !

Steel plate has not been used since the early 90's....all the ballistic plates in use today are made from a ceramic composite. The ESAPI plates currently in use are designed to stop 7.62 AP ammunition. the regular SAPI plates are designed to protect against up to 7.26 non-AP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Arms_Protective_Insert
 

DevinWKuska

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
300
Location
Spanaway
Steel plate has not been used since the early 90's....all the ballistic plates in use today are made from a ceramic composite. The ESAPI plates currently in use are designed to stop 7.62 AP ammunition. the regular SAPI plates are designed to protect against up to 7.26 non-AP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Arms_Protective_Insert

Thanks for the correction. I have seen the plates but never really payed attention to if they were still steel. Good to know.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
#1 I would question your reasoning skills if you are considering an armed confrentation with a LEO. Shooting(or attempting) a LEO is almost certainly signing your own death warrant. I havent heard of too many "Cop Killers" making it to trial.

#2 if your referring to some sort of "People vs. Govt" confrentation I would like to remind you that LEO and even most of the military is likely to side with the people. The recent events in Egypt are a great example.

Woah, way to dive headfirst off the deep end.

When did I say anything about shooting cops?

I wasn't imaging any scenarios. I haven't envisioned what kind of bad guy might attack me wearing 22 layers of kevlar, only that if one does, I'm not going to have planned ahead of time to be totally unable to defeat him.

#3 regarding you shooting through 22 layers of kevlar... I am not sure what your state laws are regarding full fledged AP rounds are, but I suspect they are not available to you.

Romanian762x54r002.jpg
 
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tcmech

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
368
Location
, ,
12 gauge buckshot is my home defense round. I carry a 45 for personal defense when I am not at home.
 

sultan62

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,311
Location
Clayton, NC
#1 I would question your reasoning skills if you are considering an armed confrentation with a LEO. Shooting(or attempting) a LEO is almost certainly signing your own death warrant. I havent heard of too many "Cop Killers" making it to trial.

#2 if your referring to some sort of "People vs. Govt" confrentation I would like to remind you that LEO and even most of the military is likely to side with the people. The recent events in Egypt are a great example.

#3 regarding you shooting through 22 layers of kevlar... I am not sure what your state laws are regarding full fledged AP rounds are, but I suspect they are not available to you. Most "Body armor" worn by LEO, Paramilitary, or military have not only 22 layers of Kevlar buy also a 1/2-1" steel plate. So unless you plan to make your own AP rounds or plan on using something to the ting of a .338 Lapua or .50BMG, I doubt your attemps will be fruitful. I am not trying to insult you, or downplay your personal beliefs. I simply want to keep you from doing something silly. Killing LEO is a great way for the 2A to get stripped and regulated. Cheers mate!

You are the only one talking about shooting LEOs. Take a look around. Read all the posts. Kevlar does not imply Cop.
 

irish52084

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Messages
285
Location
Puyallup< WA
FYI dont stop reading the article after you see the first few pictures. If you read all the way to the bottom they shoot it throught 22 layes of clothing, then spareribs and then the bullet jello. Fragmentation is seen on the ribs and rapid arc pattern immediately after. Also you mentioned it seemed to be designed to damage vital organs. If you read the article it actually states the rounds purpose is to widen the temporary canal made by a bullet passing through the body. This larger "temporary canal" means more CNS is effected and forms a sort of internal shockwave. Thus doing alot more damage then just what the bullet actually hits.

I did read the full article. I also understand the thinking behind a bullet that fragments into 2 parts and creates more area of effect on vital organs. When I referenced CNS, I was trying to say that in order to end a persons life instantly you need to sever the connection o the CNS to the body. There is roughly a T shaped target on the face that is a straight line up from the lower teeth to just below the line of the eyebrows and across the width of the eyes. This T area is in direct line with the brain stem and will most likely cause an instant death when a bullet passes through in a straight line. If your bullet fragments into 2 pieces of equal mass you are less likely to make a fight stopping CNS hit, as they lose momentum and are less likely to penetrate dense bone.

I have watched high power rifle bullets that are designed to expand rapidly and separate into 2-3 pieces perform amazingly well, but I have also seem them be very sub-par in situations where shot angle isn't perfect of velocities are not in the correct range.

The energy created by the 45acp is not sufficient to cause a "shock wave" stoppage as some more powerful calibers are able. This type of energy dump is usually associated with high powered rifles firing large bullets at 3000+fps. Even in those types of rifle rounds, complete penetration of a human being would occur 99+% of the time and the energy dump would be an almost null factor.

I don't dispute that this new planned fragmentation bullet might very well be a viable option for defense, I'm just trying to point out some possible issues. Also, never forget that selling a product often means creatively phrasing it's shortcomings.
 

Rick H

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
323
Location
Hoover, Alabama
Git-R-Done type ammo for a 40 Cal.

I use a 40 cal Smith and Wesson and from what I have found I like two types of ammo. and I load every other one for greater self defense.
One with a Triple Expansion Being a Hydra shok, and the other having a thick clothing penetration being a 40 S&W 165 gr. FTX® CRITICAL DEFENSE®

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...E918CDCC97F78647D2231B007&first=1&FORM=IDFRIR

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...5550D5F5BE69DD6D84042A8&first=661&FORM=IDFRIR

This one is a Video showing on a ballistic jell but only a 9mm Hydra Shok, it impressive. Imagine a 40 cal with this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i11CeTCNOg&feature=related
 
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