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Madison County will arrest you if they get a report of MWG!

Vondelta

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
56
Location
Huntsville, Alabama, USA
According to the Chief Deputy of the Madison County Sheriff Dept, if someone calls in a MWG, a law abiding OCer will be arrested and charged with Disorderly Conduct. Sounds to me like they are a lawsuit waiting to happen... Anyone ready to challenge them on their lack of understanding of the law?
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
According to the Chief Deputy of the Madison County Sheriff Dept, if someone calls in a MWG, a law abiding OCer will be arrested and charged with Disorderly Conduct. Sounds to me like they are a lawsuit waiting to happen... Anyone ready to challenge them on their lack of understanding of the law?

One of our ALOC members, Jonathon, was arrested in July in Birmingham for OC and was charged with DC. We are awaiting the outcome of that case before Jonathon seeks civil remedy. It would be most helpful to have both criminal and civil court judges rule that lawful OC, in and of itself, cannot be DC.

Also, one of the code changes in the Self Defense Protection Act of 2011 is to prohibit the DC code section from being used to arrest OCers.

Check out the details of these two ongoing stories at www.AlabamaOpenCarry.com .
 

Brimstone Baritone

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Messages
786
Location
Leeds, Alabama, USA
Has this happened to anyone in Madison Co yet?

Not to my knowledge. There are quite a few "I am the LAW" sheriffs in Alabama, and it's going to take some time to bring them all down. In the meantime, we're letting them froth and spew their garbage. They want to waive their 5th amendment right against self incrimination, I say let 'em.
 

Difdi

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
987
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
An interesting idea...

If legal OC is grounds for arrest, that is, it is sufficient cause for an officer to arrest someone for doing it absent all other causes...

I find myself wondering. The law makes it legal for citizens to OC. The law also makes it legal for police to OC when going about their duties, particularly in uniform. But the fact remains, they are still open carrying.

What if you got a bunch of people to phone in MWG calls every time they saw a police officer with a gun? Don't tie up the E911 line with this, phone it in to the non-emergency number (which usually goes to the same dispatch room as an emergency line call, just lacks the emergency tag). Describe the MWG, but leave out the fact he's uniformed or badged. Tell the truth, just don't tell all of it. You can't be accused (legitimately anyway) of misusing the E911 system since you're not calling 911, nor can you be legitimately accused of making a false police report, since there really is a man with a gun present.

If simply having as holstered gun openly carried is grounds for alarm, constitutes probable cause or reasonable suspicion of a crime, or amounts to disorderly conduct, then by all means, let the police know whenever you see a man with a gun!
 

Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
Calling in a MWG on a uniformed officer whether he is on-duty or not....this is one bad idea. This is not how you win friends and influence people. Besides, if you research statutes you may find a plethora of exemptions for on-duty LE to just about any law. Almost as many exemptions when they are off-duty. Then there is the "we don't hassle our own" syndrome to overcome. LE will react to this tactic and not in a neutral way, let alone a positive way.

Absolutely. So far it seems Madison county and the cities therein have not done such an arrest, making such a hasseling call useless and unfounded at best.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
2009 Alabama Code
Title 13A — CRIMINAL CODE.
Chapter 11 — OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER AND SAFETY.
Section 13A-11-7 Disorderly conduct.


(a) A person commits the crime of disorderly conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:

(1) Engages in fighting or in violent tumultuous or threatening behavior; or
(2) Makes unreasonable noise; or
(3) In a public place uses abusive or obscene language or makes an obscene gesture; or
(4) Without lawful authority, disturbs any lawful assembly or meeting of persons; or
(5) Obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic, or a transportation facility; or
(6) Congregates with other person in a public place and refuses to comply with a lawful order of the police to disperse.

(b) Disorderly conduct is a Class C misdemeanor.
(Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §5525.)

Now, this is the 2009 Code, so it May not be the most recent. One may well note that there are a total of Six Circumstances under which a charge for Disorderly Conduct may properly be brought.
Anyone care to hazard a guess as to which if any of the above circumstances are met by the mere presence of a firearm, carried openly or concealed?

They might as well charge someone with Disorderly Conduct for daring to eat a ham on rye sandwich without benefit of mustard on Sunday. The charge is just as ""appropriate"".
 
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Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
2009 Alabama Code
Title 13A — CRIMINAL CODE.
Chapter 11 — OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER AND SAFETY.
Section 13A-11-7 Disorderly conduct.


(a) A person commits the crime of disorderly conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:

(1) Engages in fighting or in violent tumultuous or threatening behavior; or
(2) Makes unreasonable noise; or
(3) In a public place uses abusive or obscene language or makes an obscene gesture; or
(4) Without lawful authority, disturbs any lawful assembly or meeting of persons; or
(5) Obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic, or a transportation facility; or
(6) Congregates with other person in a public place and refuses to comply with a lawful order of the police to disperse.

(b) Disorderly conduct is a Class C misdemeanor.
(Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §5525.)

Now, this is the 2009 Code, so it May not be the most recent. One may well note that there are a total of Six Circumstances under which a charge for Disorderly Conduct may properly be brought.
Anyone care to hazard a guess as to which if any of the above circumstances are met by the mere presence of a firearm, carried openly or concealed?

They might as well charge someone with Disorderly Conduct for daring to eat a ham on rye sandwich without benefit of mustard on Sunday. The charge is just as ""appropriate"".

In the past such charges did not get convictions. Recnetly a municiple appointed judge has ruled that bearing arms is threatening and thus disordertly conduct. This was of course a slaughtering of the written english language because one word does not a sentence make. Of course as you have noted the charge can be for threatening behavior, but if one has a firearm on in a holster or on a sling attached to ones person one has not engauged in behavior. To have behavior one must do an action. Pointing a firearm would be behavior. I find it most anoying when a judge thinks that if she would feel threatened by an item then the owner of the item has been inherently threatening...
 

Ruger .454

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2010
Messages
63
Location
Huntsville, Alabama, USA
Has this happened to anyone in Madison Co yet?

No, it hasn't. One man was detained and questioned by Madison County Sheriffs Deputies, but that encounter did not result in an arrest. All of the principal elected and appointed law enforcement officials of Huntsville and Madison County have been contacted concerning open carry. This has been done via a combination of posted letter, e-mail, telephone, and in-person conversations. No letter concerning OC to any Madison County or City of Huntsville law enforcement official has ever been favored with a response. In personal contacts none of these officials have indicated that they either support or agree with open carry, and to the best of my knowledge none are at all comfortable with it.

However, modest success has been realized. The warning on the CCW permit issued by the Madison County Sheriff that the permit does not allow the bearer to openly carry a firearm as an officer no longer appears on recently issued permits. Very modest success, indeed. The general consensus of the open carriers in the Huntsville-Madison County area is that the local law enforcement community is not yet ready for open carry. The open carriers in the area have therefore adopted a respectful and non-confrontational approach with regard to the law enforcement community, in marked contrast to the approach generally discussed in the www.alabamaopencarry.com forums.
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
Calling in a MWG on a uniformed officer whether he is on-duty or not....this is one bad idea. This is not how you win friends and influence people. Besides, if you research statutes you may find a plethora of exemptions for on-duty LE to just about any law. Almost as many exemptions when they are off-duty.

I don't believe the point is legality. It's legal for ANYONE to OC.

I believe the point is to report legal behavior. That's it. Beyond that, the LEO response is entirely their own... Choosing to respond, or not, to a non-crime is up to them.

An increase in perfectly legal MWAG calls, regardless of who they are about, would put a spotlight on dispatch policy. Another place for them to step off, or incriminate themselves by setting flagrantly frigid policy on harassing people for not breaking the law...

"OMG, I see a guy walking around with a gun! He's a white male, approximately 5'6", 230lbs. He's wearing some kind of uniform. I'm afraid he might be some Militia Lunatic impersonating a Cop! I'm afraid, I'm afraid, I'm afraid!"

"What? No, I'm not going over there and talk to him! No! I'm not going to get a closer look! I'm afraid, I'm afraid!"

"I've seen TV shows about guys who look like him; they're very dangerous!"
 

Badger Johnson

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Jan 12, 2011
Messages
1,213
Location
USA
He's a white male, approximately 5'6", 230lbs. He's wearing some kind of uniform.

I_see_what_you_did_there_cat_RE_More_funnies_for_you_all-s480x360-106842-580.jpg
 

ixtow

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Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
i_see_also.jpg


I think this one is more appropriate. ;-)

But more on topic...

While it wouldn't get a big response, I think calling in MWAG on Cops would make the point... There is no reason to respond to non-criminal behavior. If some dumbass phones up 911 over nothing, then the Cops should not be sent. Affirming a policy to the contrary would only be boning themselves more...

Right, Wrong... It's better than doing nothing, eh?
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
If legal OC is grounds for arrest, that is, it is sufficient cause for an officer to arrest someone for doing it absent all other causes...

I find myself wondering. The law makes it legal for citizens to OC. The law also makes it legal for police to OC when going about their duties, particularly in uniform. But the fact remains, they are still open carrying.

What if you got a bunch of people to phone in MWG calls every time they saw a police officer with a gun? Don't tie up the E911 line with this, phone it in to the non-emergency number (which usually goes to the same dispatch room as an emergency line call, just lacks the emergency tag). Describe the MWG, but leave out the fact he's uniformed or badged. Tell the truth, just don't tell all of it. You can't be accused (legitimately anyway) of misusing the E911 system since you're not calling 911, nor can you be legitimately accused of making a false police report, since there really is a man with a gun present.

If simply having as holstered gun openly carried is grounds for alarm, constitutes probable cause or reasonable suspicion of a crime, or amounts to disorderly conduct, then by all means, let the police know whenever you see a man with a gun!

The law does not 'make it legal' to OC.

It is that "the law does not make it illegal" to OC.

First and foremost, remember that laws do not allow behaviors, they restrict behaviors. Absent a law restricting a behavior, it is de-facto legal.

In this case, from the map page of OCDO about Open Carry in the states:

http://www.ago.state.al.us/oldopinions/8400205.pdf
 
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CBLW

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
11
Location
Laceys Spring, AL
Huntsville experience

I was stopped by Huntsville Police Department when I was eating at a Taco Bell in Huntsville. They said someone had called because I was carrying my pistol openly. I'm sure it was some liberal, whiny, big government loving, freedom-hating, "concerned citizen." You know the type... Anyways, I had just moved from TN and have permit from the state of TN to cover me (within 30 days, so I was good.) Anyways, I told them I was a "Civilian Police Officer," with the Department of the Army and from my understanding of Alabama law it was legal to carry openly. They told me it was not only illegal to carry openly, but unwise to carry openly as well. They temporarily took my gun during the encounter and returned it to me by placing in my vehicle and told me from now on, if I wanted to carry, it would HAVE to be concealed. Though 2 of the 3 officers that showed up were polite and mostly friendly after they started talking to me and checked me out, it was still a little embarrassing.

The really ironic thing is that my wife talked to some of the Huntsville Police Officers that work extra security jobs at her bank, and they said Open Carry was legal. It makes me really miss TN, where though you need a permit to carry period, at least it's a Shall Issue state and there's NO CONFUSION about HOW you can legally carry, open or concealed, it's up to you. Though you still get the liberty-hating "concerned citizen," MWG call, the Police just show up, check your permit, and say they wish you'd carry concealed since the world is full of whiny complainers.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
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May 21, 2006
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35,317
Location
Valhalla
We would not want to encourage the necessity of a permit to OC. That would be a HUGE step backwards!

What is needed is to correct the law to allow unlicensed OC in vehicles.
- then Alabama can join the ranks of Gold Star OC States.
 

Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
We would not want to encourage the necessity of a permit to OC. That would be a HUGE step backwards!

What is needed is to correct the law to allow unlicensed OC in vehicles.
- then Alabama can join the ranks of Gold Star OC States.

no Kidding! Only place I know of that is worse than AL is MS where people have trouble reading and don't understand what concealed means, and have other terrible misunderstandings about the legal, permit less and constitutionally protected nature of OC.
 

xd shooter

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
333
Location
usa
I'm a bit confused..

They told me it was not only illegal to carry openly, but unwise to carry openly as well.

If it was illegal, OF COURSE it wold be unwise!!

If it was illegal, why were you not arrested?
 

eye95

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Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
CBLW, I suggest that you take this up the chain of command at the police department. I did so in Montgomery and received an acknowledgment from the deputy chief and from the city attorney that OC was legal. They promised to change their training and conduct some new training regarding OC. It seems to have worked. I have had two encounters since my first one, and those encounters ranged from much better to perfect.

I agree with GS that OC should not require a permit. There should always, in order not to infringe on the RKBA, be a reasonable way to carry available that requires no State-issued permission slip. AL fails this test in two ways: You must have a license to carry in your car and you may not (with or without a license) carry withing 1000 feet of a demonstration. If AL fixes these two things, the RKBA will be uninfringed.
 
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Daylen

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Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
CBLW, I suggest that you take this up the chain of command at the police department. I did so in Montgomery and received an acknowledgment from the deputy chief and from the city attorney that OC was legal. They promised to change their training and conduct some new training regarding OC. It seems to have worked. I have had two encounters since my first one, and those encounters ranged from much better to perfect.

I agree with GS that OC should not require a permit. There should always, in order not to infringe on the RKBA, be a reasonable way to carry available that requires no State-issued permission slip. AL fails this test in two ways: You must have a license to carry in your car and you may not (with or without a license) carry withing 1000 feet of a demonstration. If AL fixes these two things, the RKBA will be uninfringed.

uninfringed by AL code. The governor's universities all have policies against RKBA; while arrests and criminal charges can't really be used to enforce policy academic sanctions can be just as bad or worse, it can end a career.
 
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