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Thread: No knock warrants--OT

  1. #1
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    No knock warrants--OT

    Not directly related to OC. But likely of some concern to those of us who are prepared to defend ourselves and family from home invasions.

    Troubling article about a case of no-knock warrants right here in Utah:

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ock14_ST_N.htm

    Short of a known hostage situation, I'm having a hard time seeing a justification for no-knock warrants, especially for something like drugs. Ignoring completely any question about whether our current tactics to fight drug use is the best approach, there remain serious questions in my mind about the need for no-knock warrants especially in drug cases.

    If there are so few drugs involved that they can be destroyed with a single toilet flush there are not enough drugs present to justify a no-knock, forced entry. If there are enough drugs to warrant such an entry, there are too many to destroy quickly and so what is the need for the no-knock entry? Turn off the water to residence, announce yourself, and give the occupants a couple of minutes to get to the door. And maybe wear full uniforms and have your face visible. The Lone Ranger notwithstanding, when did honest peace officers start hiding their faces in a manner more befitting armed thugs and crooks than public servants?

    Or maybe wait for the guy to leave the home to go grab a pizza and make an arrest away from his strong hold.

    Even a blind hog roots out a few truffles and in this case, I think the ACLU is right on the money.

    With the increased awareness (at least and maybe actual occurrances) of home invasion and of the invaders yelling things like "police", how is a decent, law-abiding citizen to know whether it is really the police or some home invasion? Bad info from some informant? Somebody misread the warrant and got the wrong door? Or bad guys looking to gain compliance?

    I'd like to see the use of no-knock warrants significantly curtailed.

    I was living in the Boston area about 17 years ago when bad information from an informant and lack of checking on the part of the cops lead to a no-knock warrant being executed at the apartment of a minister with zero drug involvement. The guy wasn't shot, but the totatlity of the events, including a boot on his back did lead to a heart attack that was just as deadly for him. That little mistake cost an innocent man his life and the taxpayers about $1 million in wrongful death settlement.

    Anyway, any thoughts here? I kind of figure a professional police officer conducts himself a certain way and if someone is trying to enter my home in any other way, I probably better assume (since I'm not involved in any illegal conduct) that I'm facing a violent criminal until there is strong evidence to the contrary.

    Charles

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    I think it boils down to the fact that the cops have no respect for civilians, and in fact consider them beneath contempt.

    They won't even repair a door they break in on the wrong house when given the wrong address.

    If you went into someone elses house and they came at you with a golf club, what do you think would happen to you if you shot them? Murder 2.

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    Regular Member k31's Avatar
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    it isnt the police that are te problem many of them are 9-5 guys (and gals) like the rest of us. its a job that unfortunately has to be done, just like the guy who sucks carp out stopped up pipes,it isnt the best job but thats what they do for US.
    rather than blame the cops look a little high. i dont like getting to into the whole big brother theory but thats what i see. im not into conspiracies but honestly looking at the facts, armed police allowed entry into any home or building etc. at the whim of 1 person. who in fact has little to do with the case or safety and operations of the police them self. sounds an awfull lot like George Orwell.
    if it were my home i know for a fact i ld be dead. i might get one or two of them with me but the moment the first shot is fired on either side at least one person is being carried out. bad call from the guys calling the shots. the police get paid for work just like we do they dont write the rules. the people need to stand up and do their job and make sure these things dont get put into effect.
    "best shooting gun is the gun you shoot best" tony mar

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    For anyone interested in finding out more about the extent, errors, and dangers associated with this subject, here are some references:

    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476 Scroll down for the free on-line version. Something like 40 innocent people have been killed in no-knock raids.

    http://reason.com/blog/2010/06/22/cop-vs-dog No-knock raiders too often shoot the family dog at the mistakenly raided home.

    http://www.theagitator.com/ Today (2-14-11) see the blog entry Another Isolated Incident. Also, you can just search the blog. Tons of info here.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    No knock warrants piss me off to no end. That's a good way to start a gunfight, or a lawsuit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    They won't even repair a door they break in...
    This reminded me of something I saw a few days ago. Watch as begabitch beats the piss out of somebody's door.

    http://tlc.discovery.com/videos/poli...-the-door.html
    Last edited by Kevin Jensen; 02-14-2011 at 10:27 PM.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jensen View Post
    This reminded me of something I saw a few days ago. Watch as begabitch beats the piss out of somebody's door.

    http://tlc.discovery.com/videos/poli...-the-door.html
    Whoa!!!

    That is insane. And, her explanation makes no sense. Somebody with a gun? Who would have to shoot through their pals on the landing? Give me a break. Essentially, she was demanding that he risk his life getting shot by the "possible" gun when he opened the door. Or, expose himself to being in the middle of a gun fight. This is right out of Hollywood where John Wayne makes the suspected bad-guy go through the door first, getting the bad guy killed. She's too stupid to see the illogic in her own justification.

    And, then arresting for obstruction the guy for refusing to open the door? Horsehockey!! Ordering him to step aside and opening the door herself, maybe--IF there is case law that permits that to be done by her.

    And, badgering the other guy over his rights? Give me a break!

    Oh, and did anybody notice the dents she put in the metal door while banging on it? The least we can say is unnecessary. If she saw "people running", then the occupants clearly knew the cops were outside, making further banging with a (baton?) unnessary. But, I guess in her department they are trained never to just knock loudly, or use the palm of their hand to slap loudly.

    What a laughable bunch of overbearing nonsense.

    I would love to see the follow up on this. Were the charges dropped?

    And, maybe somebody needs to write The Learning Channel taking them to task for airing such anti-rights garbage.
    Last edited by Citizen; 02-14-2011 at 11:05 PM.

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    Regular Member NewZealandAmerican's Avatar
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    No Knock raids too dangerous

    No knock raids would barely be existent if it weren't for the phoney "war on drugs!" There is no justification for them unless imminent threat to innocent life is present. But for someone placing a controlled substance into their body is their own business and right. No legitimate government has a right to tell you what you can or cannot do with your own body and property. It's so sad that it is almost forgotten that the most simple way for mankind to get along, for freedom and prosperity to prevail is that one is free to do as you please unless you infringe on someone elses right to do as they please! The only time a crime is committed in the context of drug use is if a harmful substance is provided to a minor or someone who is not mentally capable of making decisions for themselves. Here is a simple 9 min video of what FREEDOM & LIBERTY really is, including the right to life and defending oneself (with firearms) Our REPUBLIC is based on these simple principles even though we have strayed far from them.

    Philosphy Of Liberty http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei0ch...eature=related Hope to hear some feedback about this short video. SHARE this around.
    Last edited by NewZealandAmerican; 02-15-2011 at 01:23 AM. Reason: because I'm clumsy sometimes!
    (Dion Wood). MY FREEDOM PAGE[/COLOR] with valuable links to ALTERNATIVE MEDIA, Internet Radio shows and other sites to restore our FREEDOM & LIBERTYhttp://www.QRZ.com/db/KB9QFH TELEPHONE: +1(800)808-KIWI that's +1(800)808-5494 Tollfree. "NewZealander By Birth, American By The Grace Of God." See also http://www.facebook.com/NewZealandAmerican & http://RTR.org/NewZealandAmerican “IN MEMORY OF OUR GOD, OUR RELIGION, AND FREEDOM, AND OUR PEACE, OUR WIVES, AND OUR CHILDREN" (The Title Of LIBERTY)

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewZealandAmerican View Post
    SNIP Our REPUBLIC is based on these simple principles even though we have strayed far from them.
    Oh, I wouldn't go quite that far. Look up the history of the Bill of Rights, they were not absolute.

    Plus, a particular aspect of the ratification of the constitution tells the tale. The several millions of people upon who the constitution was legally binding had too little to say about it. Ratifying conventions, and perhaps a few state legislatures, ratified the constitution on behalf of an amorphous and legally meaningless "we the people". Nobody, except perhaps the delegates to the constitutional convention signed their assent as to a contract.

    And, most importantly, nobody, but nobody, had the option to refuse their consent and remain as an unbound minority while remaining in the country. The Framers, the state ratifying conventions, and especially The Federalists, fully intended to wield power over everybody, regardless of whether a person infringed on anybody else.

    The ideals you mention are great, and the Framers, and the folks who demanded a Bill of Rights made great strides towards those ideals. But, I wouldn't quite say the republic was founded on those principles. I might say the Federalists grudgingly acknowledged certain aspects of those ideals when they saw their constitution about to be derailed during ratification, forcing a Bill of Rights; but that is about as far as I would go.
    Last edited by Citizen; 02-15-2011 at 01:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jensen View Post
    This reminded me of something I saw a few days ago. Watch as begabitch beats the piss out of somebody's door.

    http://tlc.discovery.com/videos/poli...-the-door.html
    Holy.... !!!!

    Where's my duct tape alert?!?

    So, to deal with this perceived threat behind the door, she pulls both of them away from the door, then stands with her back to the door. Hauls one off for "obstructing", and still doesn't open the door -- because she has no authority to do so. The only legal way she had to get that door open was to bully one of them into opening it.

    I'm amazed they pull this nonsense in front of the cameras, but then again, it was probably only the cameras that kept them from finding "exigent circumstances" that would let her smash the glass out and unlock the door herself.

    Echoing utahbagpiper, there is nothing to be gained by no-knock warrants. Even if the occupants manage to flush a half ton of drugs, the goal is to "get drugs off the streets", right? Mission accomplished. Oh, wait, maybe that's not the actual goal of such raids, ya think?

    As shown by the CATO article and the fine work by Radley Balko, "dynamic entry" endangers everyone involved -- both the occupants and the police.

    What did Kevin Jensen call her, "begabitch"? Megabitch? Whichever, she exemplifies the most troubling aspect of modern policing: that citizens knowing and insisting on their rights are "obstructing" police work. Her demand of "Are you a lawyer?" should be met with, "No, are you? Should we trust your legal advice?"

    I'm reminded of the classic 1948 cartoon from Harding College, "Make Mine Freedom":

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI_RlkKAogE

    It's worth watching the whole nine and and a half minutes, but the "Where's yer warrant, flatfoot?" starting at 1:21 is both classic, and very relevant to the Cincinnati video.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    SNIP So, to deal with this perceived threat behind the door, she pulls both of them away from the door, then stands with her back to the door. Hauls one off for "obstructing", and still doesn't open the door -- because she has no authority to do so.
    Great catch! Also, your point about exercising rights being obstruction. Nice prose, that.

    +1 on the 1948 Harding College cartoon. I've seen it before--a couple years ago. Great to see it linked again.

    We do have to watch out, though. Remember the story of a young adult male arrested for obstructing when the police demanded entry because they had a report that there was fight going on inside a home? Turned out to be just a noisy party. But, the cops were apparently legal to enter without a warrant under the "community caretaking" exception to the warrant clause in order to make sure no one was injured and needing assistance. The young adult was dragged out into his (or his parents?) yard, and arrested. All because the government-funded school system had taught him "no warrant, no entry" and he had the guts to exercise what he had been incompletely told was his right. These days, you practically need a lawyer on speed dial to tell you whether cops have legal authority to enter, and you are reduced to refusing consent while complying with cop demands.
    Last edited by Citizen; 02-15-2011 at 01:55 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jensen View Post
    No knock warrants piss me off to no end. That's a good way to start a gunfight, or a lawsuit.



    This reminded me of something I saw a few days ago. Watch as begabitch beats the piss out of somebody's door.

    http://tlc.discovery.com/videos/poli...-the-door.html
    So after watching this video am I to understand that I only have Constitutional protections from unreasonable searches and or seizures if I am an attorney? And she was SO PROUD OF HER ACTIONS..... all caught on camera!

    They never even asked if either one was the legal resident/tenant?--- at least on the video that was released!
    Just wrong... all wrong!
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 02-15-2011 at 02:11 AM.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    My Favorite argument against no knock raids.

    http://articles.cnn.com/2010-08-16/j...id?_s=PM:CRIME

    Family of woman killed in botched drug raid to receive $4.9 million

    August 16, 2010|By the CNN Wire Staff


    The city of Atlanta will pay $4.9 million to the family of Kathryn Johnston, a 92-year-old woman killed in a botched November 2006 drug raid, Mayor Kasim Reed's office announced Monday.

    Johnston was shot to death by narcotics officers conducting a "no-knock" warrant. Investigators later determined the raid was based on falsified paperwork stating that illegal drugs were present in the home.

    The incident prompted a major overhaul of the Atlanta police drug unit, and three former police officers were sentenced to prison terms for a cover-up that ensued.

    ...

    As the search warrant was being executed November 21, 2006, at Johnston's home, she fired at officers with an old pistol, apparently believing her home was being broken into. Six officers returned fire. Johnston's one shot went through her front door and over the officers' heads. They responded with 39 shots, hitting the elderly woman five times.



    As far as the Discovery Channel link is concerned... well it ain't real. It's sh*t TV designed to illicit a response so they can sell ad space.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 02-15-2011 at 02:23 AM.
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  13. #13
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    thank you for this thread, this calls my attention to a security issue at our house! It's time for me to put a wired intercom outside by the door, and one inside by the door, so i can speak to whomever is outside my door, and NOT OPEN MY DOOR exposing myself to potential risk in the process, nor go outside to deal with someone, anyone, cop or criminal, in the process. You can bang on my door all you want, but i aint coming out, and i may have a means of protection from unlawful or illegal intrusion available to me on my side of the door. I overlooked this risk, and thank you for pointing it out to me!

  14. #14
    Regular Member NewZealandAmerican's Avatar
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    Indeed

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, I wouldn't go quite that far. Look up the history of the Bill of Rights, they were not absolute.

    Plus, a particular aspect of the ratification of the constitution tells the tale. The several millions of people upon who the constitution was legally binding had too little to say about it. Ratifying conventions, and perhaps a few state legislatures, ratified the constitution on behalf of an amorphous and legally meaningless "we the people". Nobody, except perhaps the delegates to the constitutional convention signed their assent as to a contract.

    And, most importantly, nobody, but nobody, had the option to refuse their consent and remain as an unbound minority while remaining in the country. The Framers, the state ratifying conventions, and especially The Federalists, fully intended to wield power over everybody, regardless of whether a person infringed on anybody else.

    The ideals you mention are great, and the Framers, and the folks who demanded a Bill of Rights made great strides towards those ideals. But, I wouldn't quite say the republic was founded on those principles. I might say the Federalists grudgingly acknowledged certain aspects of those ideals when they saw their constitution about to be derailed during ratification, forcing a Bill of Rights; but that is about as far as I would go.
    Yes I would have to agree with you, I should not be so zealous in stating that the founding fathers did establish a true land of Liberty. Some of the Founding fathers did not all have benevolence in mind at the founding of our republic. There definately are several flaws in the Constitution, even some parts of the Constitution itself are "un-constitutional" A good book I need to read again and study in more depth that I found impressive is the book "Good To Be King" by Michael Badnarik of http://www.ConstitutionPreservation.org of which Michael makes Chapter 2 "RIGHTS vs Privileges available online for free http://www.constitutionpreservation....hapter_two.pdf Thanks for getting back to me.
    (Dion Wood). MY FREEDOM PAGE[/COLOR] with valuable links to ALTERNATIVE MEDIA, Internet Radio shows and other sites to restore our FREEDOM & LIBERTYhttp://www.QRZ.com/db/KB9QFH TELEPHONE: +1(800)808-KIWI that's +1(800)808-5494 Tollfree. "NewZealander By Birth, American By The Grace Of God." See also http://www.facebook.com/NewZealandAmerican & http://RTR.org/NewZealandAmerican “IN MEMORY OF OUR GOD, OUR RELIGION, AND FREEDOM, AND OUR PEACE, OUR WIVES, AND OUR CHILDREN" (The Title Of LIBERTY)

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    The mayor of Berwyn Heights MD knows first hand about 'no knock' warrants. I think he later settled for an 'undisclosed' sum of money.

    Of course that doesn't bring back his two family dogs the police shot and killed during the botched raid....

    http://articles.cnn.com/2008-08-07/j...ic?_s=PM:CRIME

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26079096...me_and_courts/

    http://www.cato.org/weekly/index.php?vid_id=79

    and probably the most complete in-depth version: (a long and interesting... if not disturbing, read....)
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...egister&sub=AR

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    Honestly if something like this happened to me, people would die because I would be firing on the unidentified intruders that broke into my house.

    No-Knock Warrants are total BS and need to stop.

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    no knock nonsenes

    in the 80's according to the story first mentioned there were between 2000,to 3000, no knock warrants served per year. now according to that story there are between 70,000 and 80,000 per year.

    in the 80's that was a little over 8 per day, nation wide. seems reasonable.

    now we are looking at 191 - 219 per day... that's nonsense

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Anyone have an update on the suit against these bastards?

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    What about the ex-LEOs in LA who were using "no-knock warrant" type raids to steal from people?

    http://articles.latimes.com/2008/may...l/me-corrupt20

    I'd snip the article but, it wouldn't do it any justice. Makes me sick.

    Really. They even STOLE real cop cars to make the home invasion/no-knock warrant more realistic! So, how are we suppose to know who the "good guys" are? And, of course, if we open fire, we chance turning up like Tracy Ingle (http://www.arktimes.com/arkansas/sho...ent?oid=948430). Really? Really?
    Last edited by ThatOneChick; 03-23-2011 at 02:57 AM. Reason: Adding a rant. =)

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    no knock warrants = another abuse of authority brought to you by the war on drugs

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    Regular Member yo101jimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jensen View Post
    No knock warrants piss me off to no end. That's a good way to start a gunfight, or a lawsuit.



    This reminded me of something I saw a few days ago. Watch as begabitch beats the piss out of somebody's door.

    http://tlc.discovery.com/videos/poli...-the-door.html
    I know a bit off topic but that video pissed me off! too many police officers ack like they have all these rights. handcuffed that kid because well not his house and been told not to open the door by the home owner. Whats wrong with that? no warrant, and also if she was so called in the line of fire well putting cuffs on that kid would have ment getting shot in the back right?
    ”The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world… The first step – in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come – is to teach men to shoot!”
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