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Thread: Perhaps open carry really is the answer

  1. #1
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    Perhaps open carry really is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    +1

    Once again the transport and out of reach argument starts. Let's ask all the police in Wisconsin to stake out all the gun stores and arrest everyone who walks in or out with a gun "hidden from plain view" for a violation of 941.23. Every time a gun is purchased the "offender" can be arrested as soon as he/she closes the lid to the box the gun is in or puts it in the bag. Same goes for knives, bows, arrows, etc....the list is long.

    It is IMPOSSIBLE to follow 941.23 AND 167.31 simultaneously.
    I wonder how quickly we would get our rights back if every time we transported a firearm it was openly. Leave the gun store remove from case walk to car, case up and go. When going to the range park at the end of the block and carry each firearm openly, one at a time, to the car to encase and store "out of reach" (had to throw that in there). Going to work and instead of uncasing inside do it out in the open. Perhaps it is our lack of always displaying weapons in the open and limiting the number and times that we do that has enabled 8 years to pass with no progress. I would assume that if the number of weapons openly displayed was to jump significantly that even those at WAVE would support reforming Wisconsin gun laws. Perhaps in honor of J.G. trail on 2/28/2011 a Statewide open carry push is in order.

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    Regular Member Krusty's Avatar
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    When I travel and transport, I have gun in a zippered case, within easy reach and unloaded. That seems to be the most practical way to transport. The loaded magazine is generally in my pocket.
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    Regular Member Resdon111's Avatar
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    Is there any known history of people being arrested on the sole basis of this Catch-22? I can imagine a situation where it gets tacked on as an ancillary charge during the arrest of a drug dealer or other felon, but is it known if anyone has ever been charged on this alone?
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    A very recent case in Milwaukee

    Resdon111,

    Judge Watts just ruled in Milwaukee that a man searching for his stolen car in a high crime area after being robbed who was charged with carrying a concealed weapon for having a encased and unloaded .38 revolver under the driver seat unconstitutional as applied in that case. It is the kind of case that should outrage every firearms owner in the State and force the legislature to actually deal with the incongruent gun laws in Wisconsin. Instead a lot of people seem to dismiss it as not relevant since they regularly transport with the cased firearm within reach and think that they would also have the same protections if ever charged. Really sad. I am becoming rather jaded myself. Perhaps Walker and the others will come through anyway.

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/116137829.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resdon111 View Post
    Is there any known history of people being arrested on the sole basis of this Catch-22? I can imagine a situation where it gets tacked on as an ancillary charge during the arrest of a drug dealer or other felon, but is it known if anyone has ever been charged on this alone?
    Take a good look at this thread:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...94#post1467994

    especially
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post

    Also, of the many cases referenced in this thread only Fry, Walls and Fisher involved transport of a firearm in or on a vehicle, which by the way is the subject of this thread. None of those three cases involved firearms that were properly unloaded and encased IAW ss167.31.

    Of the extensive research I have done on case law involving convictions for carrying a concealed weapon I can find no published court opinion where a person was convicted of that crime while transporting a firearm in or on a vehicle, if that firearm was properly unloaded and encased as required by 167.31.

    My conclusion to my research is that there appears to be an "understanding" in the Wisconsin judicial sytem that if a firearm is properly unloaded and encased while being transported in or on a vehicle the rules of concealment do not apply. One rule of which is "within reach".

    If someone can cite a published case opinion or information to the contrary please correct me.

    This is my opinion and not to be considered legal advice.
    Correct vehicular transportation is unloaded and encased.

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Talking I try to do this as much as possible so people SEE my firearm in the open...

    Quote Originally Posted by Uziel Gal View Post
    I wonder how quickly we would get our rights back if every time we transported a firearm it was openly. Leave the gun store remove from case walk to car, case up and go. When going to the range park at the end of the block and carry each firearm openly, one at a time, to the car to encase and store "out of reach" (had to throw that in there). Going to work and instead of uncasing inside do it out in the open. Perhaps it is our lack of always displaying weapons in the open and limiting the number and times that we do that has enabled 8 years to pass with no progress. I would assume that if the number of weapons openly displayed was to jump significantly that even those at WAVE would support reforming Wisconsin gun laws. Perhaps in honor of J.G. trail on 2/28/2011 a Statewide open carry push is in order.
    When I buy guns from stores such as Bass Pro and Cabelas they will not allow the purchaser to carry the firearms after purchase. Instead they walk you to the door as THEY carry said firearms. Once at the door or just outside the door they hand you your purchase(s) and ask you to put them in your vehicle. This to me is hypocritical since they SELL them but don't want you to HANDLE them on their property.

    As for the shooting range(s) I go to once again they do not allow us to bring the firearm in uncased or wearing it. Maybe this will change once we get Constitutional Carry. I hope so.

    Now every time I open carry I do openly display my firearm to whomever is in visual range and looking. I'm not a criminal so I have nothing to hide and this is the only legal way to open carry once you arrive at your destination. For instance at the Culvers lunch this past Sunday we were the first there. After checking the restaurant and seeing no one there yet open carrying we waited in the parking lot. Cars and trucks arrived and parked around us, we watched as dozens of people got out, pulled out their cases and loaded up. We then got out, picked up our cases from the seat next to us and loaded and holstered up.

    I agree 100% that if people saw law abiding people with guns going about their lives without incident their views would change over time.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    If you were to ask these dumbarse lawmakers a simple question - "When do most accidental discharges occur? When the HG is in your holster, or concealed, or when you're messing around loading, unloading, casing, uncasing, or being disarmed by overzealous and law-ignorant LEOs?", they might change their viewpoint - but I doubt it.

    They MUST realize that LAW-ABIDING citizens can run afoul of this miasma of legal claptrap and that people are arrested because they are doing what a reasonable person would do. What is the point of arresting law-abiding citizens? It's insanity. There are plenty of CRIMINALS to arrest. Stop chasing down OC guys walking their dogs and get some nads and go handle some real crime, ferpetesake.
    /rant

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    Regular Member XDFDE45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    When I buy guns from stores such as Bass Pro and Cabelas they will not allow the purchaser to carry the firearms after purchase. Instead they walk you to the door as THEY carry said firearms. Once at the door or just outside the door they hand you your purchase(s) and ask you to put them in your vehicle. This to me is hypocritical since they SELL them but don't want you to HANDLE them on their property.




    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    I agree 100% that if people saw law abiding people with guns going about their lives without incident their views would change over time.
    People have been spoon fed the misconception that people who own and carry guns are just evil nut jobs who at the drop of a hat will draw their weapon and just start to randomly shooting everyone . Like rcawdor57 said the more people see us out and about doing our thing hopefully the more they will realize we are just like them, the only difference being is that we refuse to be victims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uziel Gal View Post
    I wonder how quickly we would get our rights back if every time we transported a firearm it was openly. Leave the gun store remove from case walk to car, case up and go. When going to the range park at the end of the block and carry each firearm openly, one at a time, to the car to encase and store "out of reach" (had to throw that in there). Going to work and instead of uncasing inside do it out in the open. Perhaps it is our lack of always displaying weapons in the open and limiting the number and times that we do that has enabled 8 years to pass with no progress. I would assume that if the number of weapons openly displayed was to jump significantly that even those at WAVE would support reforming Wisconsin gun laws. Perhaps in honor of J.G. trail on 2/28/2011 a Statewide open carry push is in order.
    My sentiments exactly. The best way to prove to those in authority the absurdity of our statutes as they relate to firearms is to demonstrate them as often as possible to the community at large. People handling firearms is more alarming to people then people just carrying them in a holster. If the state wants all this handling of firearms in public, let's give it them.
    Last edited by Max; 02-15-2011 at 01:05 PM.

  10. #10
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    the public, the police, the population as a whole, needs to learn to use their heads, their superior minds, their powers of observation; a gun in a holster does NOT constitute a threat, it does NOT imply any intent, the gun in the holster should be viewed as just that, with no colorization by what if's, or maybe could be's. it's just a machine parked in it's approved retainer, no more deadly than any other machine at rest- example a parked car; nothing more!

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    Regular Member IcrewUH60's Avatar
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    I don't overly exercise my right to free speech, or overly practice my religion just to prove a point or get the public more accustomed to it.

    Why should 2A be treated any different? You don't need a license to speak. You don't need a license to worship. You don't need a license to publish in the press.

    You don't assume that a community activist is going to kill people with his words. You don't assume that the religious man is going to kill with his religion. You don't assume that the reporter is going to kill with his article. Why do our friends/family/neighbors assume that we are going to kill with our guns?

    that's the reason for regulation, correct?
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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    I have to say that reading this forum should be required for all adults who can get training and get their permit and/or OC responsibly.

    I have had one experience many, many years ago where a person OC and I was very irate about it. It was a gut reaction and I was used to being around HG and various marital arts weapons. But the guy seemed to be a bit of an a-hole in his temperament.

    Had I been reading here, I'd have overlooked that 'attitude', which was really not that bad, and seen it/him as a positive and protective force/entity.

    It's all in how you look at it. At the time being in martial arts (and hey, just being a GUY), I saw anyone with a disparity of force as 'the enemy', and I think that could be the crux of it. As males we're used to 'sizing up' the "competition" and making such judgments. Maybe it's part of an instinctive reaction?

    I think that's a small part of the negative reaction we have towards LEOs? It's a clear disparity of force and we don't like it. We want our cops to be like Andy of Mayberry, to be our friend, and to be subservient to us as a public servant should be.

    In fact, a LEO should be 'nicer' than his fellow man, because he has the backing of law and doesn't have to be an a-hole to get his way. He can and SHOULD use gentle persuasion on CIVILIANS. Instead citizens/civilians get treated like perps and predators.

    $.02

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    I have to say that reading this forum should be required for all adults who can get training and get their permit and/or OC responsibly.

    I have had one experience many, many years ago where a person OC and I was very irate about it. It was a gut reaction and I was used to being around HG and various marital arts weapons. But the guy seemed to be a bit of an a-hole in his temperament.

    Had I been reading here, I'd have overlooked that 'attitude', which was really not that bad, and seen it/him as a positive and protective force/entity.

    It's all in how you look at it. At the time being in martial arts (and hey, just being a GUY), I saw anyone with a disparity of force as 'the enemy', and I think that could be the crux of it. As males we're used to 'sizing up' the "competition" and making such judgments. Maybe it's part of an instinctive reaction?

    I think that's a small part of the negative reaction we have towards LEOs? It's a clear disparity of force and we don't like it. We want our cops to be like Andy of Mayberry, to be our friend, and to be subservient to us as a public servant should be.

    In fact, a LEO should be 'nicer' than his fellow man, because he has the backing of law and doesn't have to be an a-hole to get his way. He can and SHOULD use gentle persuasion on CIVILIANS. Instead citizens/civilians get treated like perps and predators.

    $.02
    Yep! I agree with you 100%. Keep in mind that police these days are trained that everyone has committed a crime, they only have to figure out which one it is and charge/arrest us for it. With their mindset as such we are all criminals just waiting to be arrested.

  14. #14
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I'm not out & about much, but I've started OCing everywhere.

    As an example, prior to this thread I'd gone to the gym (pistol in its case in the car) & just put the whole case in my gym bag to carry into & out of the gym.

    Some would try to say that's concealed carry, 'cause of our screwy laws that need to be repealed.

    So between that interpretation that could be used against me by police, & the general wish to raise public awareness about the peaceful exercise of rights, I've been OCing into & out of the gym, only encasing in the car. And yes, it's locked in the locker w/ the rest of my street clothes while I'm busy getting hot, sweaty, & tired... [& not in a fun way. ]

    Much to the surprise of those indoctrinated by WAVE & its ilk, nobody has reacted (at least, not that I can see)... pretty much like everywhere else.
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