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Thread: Should my partner OC?

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Should my partner OC?

    My female friend and I have discussed OC and she is adamantly against it for herself. The reason is pretty good. She's 5'4, 138lbs, a newbie to HG carry, but we've been going to the range and she can handle her gun(s). She is not a youngster and has small hands and relatively weak upper body.

    She says that with OC you are giving away that you're armed, i.e. warning some aggressor, and she is worried about someone trying to take her gun.

    I've thought about it and I really can't come up with a counter argument.

    In fact if you consider that I would likely be the target of a mugging and if the BG ignores her, she could use her HG to best advantage below the radar.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    OC is a deterrent.

    However, if she wishes to CC, that is certainly her choice to make, and is much better than not carrying at all.
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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    OC

    As mentioned in another thread there are very few cases where an OC'er has been targeted because of their gun, or been a victim of a gun grab. BG's don't like a fair fight, they will go find a woman with keys.

    "In Illinois the State Police, on the ISP website, tell women they should defend themselves with car keys, rat tail combs, a teasing brush or pens and pencils. They don't even mention pepper spray. Of course one of their great recommendations is to stop a rapist "if all else fails throw up on yourself to make yourself less appealing!"

    Quote from junglebob on another thread.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    My female friend and I have discussed OC and she is adamantly against it for herself. The reason is .... She's 5'4, 138lbs, a newbie to HG carry, but we've been going to the range and she can handle her gun(s). She is not a youngster and has small hands and relatively weak upper body.

    She says that with OC you are giving away that you're armed, i.e. warning some aggressor, and she is worried about someone trying to take her gun.

    .....

    In fact if you consider that I would likely be the target of a mugging and if the BG ignores her, she could use her HG to best advantage below the radar.

    Thoughts?
    I'm going to take stuff in reverse order.

    1) Just what makes you think you will be the target of the mugging? How about you are the target of getting bashed over the head/sucker punched and she is then targeted? She's the weaker one. right?

    2) There is a three-figure reward for the first verified report of an OCer being targeted for their gun and having it taken away by a BG. It's been out there, uncollected, for several years.

    2a) As others have said, and several peer-reviewed studies have confirmed, very few, if any, BGs do not like to confront OCers, including cops. Most gun grabs happen to cops while they are grappling with the BG.

    3) As a HG newbie, just how good is she on her drawstroke from wherever she keeps her CC piece? How fast onto target? Is she significantly faster/better from OC?

    Not that #3 matters that much. Some folks just do not want to OC because of whatever reason they have, whether they want to talk about it or not. (No, I am NOT suggesting she has a reason she does not want to tallk about.) The fact that she is willing to carry at all is great, wonderful, good, praiseworthy, etc., etc. The fact that she goes to the range with you is even better. The fact that she apparently has not beaten you at te range - YET, is just that.

    I'm pretty sure that there are a whole bunch of folks whose first thought is - Does she have a sister? Other than that, the only thought I have is that you are one lucky guy.

    stay safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    My female friend and I have discussed OC and she is adamantly against it for herself. The reason is pretty good. She's 5'4, 138lbs, a newbie to HG carry, but we've been going to the range and she can handle her gun(s). She is not a youngster and has small hands and relatively weak upper body.

    She says that with OC you are giving away that you're armed, i.e. warning some aggressor, and she is worried about someone trying to take her gun.

    I've thought about it and I really can't come up with a counter argument.

    In fact if you consider that I would likely be the target of a mugging and if the BG ignores her, she could use her HG to best advantage below the radar.

    Thoughts?
    Respect her choice, but keep discussing the merits of CC and OC. Her fears of being targeted and of gun-grabs are unfounded. I know of not a single documented instance of either. Still, the most important thing is that she be prepared to defend herself. There are a lot of options how to accomplish that.

    Keep talking. Keep training. Let her decide what works for her.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Goo9d to have a starting point like this. Plant the seed and it will grow.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Wow you guys are good, heh. I really like the argument/comment that one poster made about whether she is faster on the draw CC than she would be OC with the gun on her right hip in a fast retention holster.

    Yes, my gf likes guns. She now has a bunch of them and she'd rather go to the gun store and shop for a new pistol then go jewelry shopping. In fact she opened the new Gandermountain catalog and showed me a semi-auto shotgun with a pistol grip and raised her eyebrow and smiled - 'can we has this?,' she said, fluttering her eyelashes.

    We're in the car coming back from the range and she says, 'man, we have to find a place to shoot outdoors, but if you'd let me I'd come to the range and shoot everyday'. I just roll my eyes and smile.

    Um, no, she doesn't have a sister like her, and she is against having another threesome, unless, she said, it's Charlize Theron.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Wow you guys are good, heh. I really like the argument/comment that one poster made about whether she is faster on the draw CC than she would be OC with the gun on her right hip in a fast retention holster.

    Yes, my gf likes guns. She now has a bunch of them and she'd rather go to the gun store and shop for a new pistol then go jewelry shopping. In fact she opened the new Gandermountain catalog and showed me a semi-auto shotgun with a pistol grip and raised her eyebrow and smiled - 'can we has this?,' she said, fluttering her eyelashes.

    We're in the car coming back from the range and she says, 'man, we have to find a place to shoot outdoors, but if you'd let me I'd come to the range and shoot everyday'. I just roll my eyes and smile.

    Um, no, she doesn't have a sister like her, and she is against having another threesome, unless, she said, it's Charlize Theron.
    You got a keeper - keep her.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    2) There is a three-figure reward for the first verified report of an OCer being targeted for their gun and having it taken away by a BG. It's been out there, uncollected, for several years.
    Who/What/Where? I would like to claim it.

  10. #10
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Was it just me that saw that word?!?
    [ Nope - was just ignoring it as should everyone else ]
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by skidmark
    2) There is a three-figure reward for the first verified report of an OCer being targeted for their gun and having it taken away by a BG. It's been out there, uncollected, for several years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    Who/What/Where? I would like to claim it.
    You have to post your verified report and have it confirmed independently by folks here. As for your three questions, a basic search of OCDO should lead you to the answers.

    As the claim has not been made lo these many years, none of us actually have bated breath, let alone are holding our breath waiting for one to surface. I'm sure you'd like to claim the reward, but in order to do that there first has to be an incident that meets the conditions and can be verified. None of this "my sister's hairdresser's nephew's parole officer said" stuff.

    stay safe.

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    We've kinda all already heard all the claims. We're probably about to get another recycled story.

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    Regular Member XD40coyote's Avatar
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    She could join a gym and do weight training to strengthen up, then learn retention training. The weight training doesn't really matter, but it could be a confidence booster for her when combined with retention training.

    I used to work out the upper body with an 8 pound dumb bell in each hand. One was working the muscles involved in throwing a punch. I also was a good sprinter so long as I wasn't going up hill. Then there was the big dog. Lastly, my "you die" look LOL. I'm probably stronger than most women by virtue of me carrying heavy stuff around alot. I was getting carpal tunnel, but a chiropractor got my neck back into line and that is now gone, so my grip strength is back and quite fine. My weakness is genetic lower back problems.

    5'4" and 138, she sounds like she has some heft to her ( I was once 5'5" and 120 and didn't look like a total twig- was a size 10). I doubt anyone would try to mess with her if she is OCing and she keeps the SA up and looks confident.

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I'm going to take stuff in reverse order.

    2) There is a three-figure reward for the first verified report of an OCer being targeted for their gun and having it taken away by a BG. It's been out there, uncollected, for several years.

    stay safe.
    I'll take that reward, thank you very much.

    http://allafrica.com/stories/200707030884.html

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    I'll take that reward, thank you very much.

    http://allafrica.com/stories/200707030884.html
    Good luck with that.

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post
    Good luck with that.
    How about this one then?

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/police-e...-guns-1.196070

    I can find more. I'm specifically looking for the one where (african, I think?) militias are sniping off police officers for their weapons.

  17. #17
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    I'll take that reward, thank you very much.

    http://allafrica.com/stories/200707030884.html
    Doesn't qualify. That involved LE and was not in the USA.

    Let me give you the full details of the challenge:

    Show me one instance anywhere in these United States in modern times where a legal OCer has been preemptively taken out by a BG. Verifiable cites must be provided and law enforcement, security officers and military are excluded.

    The 2nd challenge reads:
    Show me one instance anywhere in these United States in modern times where a legal OCer has had his handgun snatched by a BG. Again with verifiable cites and LEO, security officers and military excluded. Note being relieved of a carry weapon (OC or CC) during the course of a robbery does Not qualify.

    As a footnote to both is the statement that such will according to the odds of probability likely happen some day; however, when such does it will yield a numerical equivalent of something near .000001% Better odds you will be hard pressed to locate and will then be used to support the contention that OC is not unsafe.

    There never was a reward offered - that was Skid's sarcasm showing through as 100 pennies would meet his reward offer. The person that does locate such a rare occurrence though will gain notoriety as the one who confirmed the validity of our premise by finding the one exception to the rule.

    Several "finds" have been offered over the years either to be disproved or like yours not satisfying the standards. What we are looking for is the normal everyday citizen, going about his normal everyday business and having the distinction of meeting fate head on.

    Look some more. We'll be here waiting.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-18-2011 at 01:15 AM. Reason: edited
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    How about this one then?

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/police-e...-guns-1.196070

    I can find more. I'm specifically looking for the one where (african, I think?) militias are sniping off police officers for their weapons.
    Thats hardly anything to do with an OC'er needing retention to keep a hold of their weapon(s) from a BG. Military and police in "warzones" need not apply.

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post

    Several "finds" have been offered over the years either to be disproved or like yours not satisfying the standards. What we are looking for is the normal everyday citizen, going about his normal everyday business and having the distinction of meeting fate head on.

    Look some more. We'll be here waiting.
    Oh, there were stipulations? Like citizen, here in the good ol' U.S., not during a crime, not in commission of a crime, not disarmed by L.E., not from a drunken passed out O.C.'er? Can you point me to the first thread with all these darn rules? Not encouraged by this here very contest on this forum?

    Well those odds are pretty slim. And yes, I was being sarcastic too even in those links I posted. I knew that it has happened somewhere at sometime. At least according to Schrödinger.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Come on guys, we are not talking about Somoli pirates or Afgan insurgents.

    We are talking about you and I types - in this country of ours - and today not 200 years ago when the British were our antagonists.

    Point is OC is quite safe and effective. Knock yourself out looking for that one hen's tooth.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    Oh, there were stipulations? Like citizen, here in the good ol' U.S., not during a crime, not in commission of a crime, not disarmed by L.E., not from a drunken passed out O.C.'er? Can you point me to the first thread with all these darn rules? Not encouraged by this here very contest on this forum?

    Well those odds are pretty slim. And yes, I was being sarcastic too even in those links I posted. I knew that it has happened somewhere at sometime. At least according to Schrödinger.
    Not picking you - you could have searched for the challenge as it has been repeated ad naseum here on OCDO, instead of assuming that you could show that somewhere in the world something bad had happened. Or you could have (gasp) asked what the criteria was.

    The old adage of "If it can happen, it will" still does apply though. Reread the .000001% conclusion above. The point behind this should be obvious.

    BTW - the original thread/post goes back many years and would be buried in the archives somewhere. My guess is that it was first postulated in 2006 or 2007, but has been repeated by others as well as myself more times that I could speculate.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-18-2011 at 01:36 AM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Wow you guys are good, heh. I really like the argument/comment that one poster made about whether she is faster on the draw CC than she would be OC with the gun on her right hip in a fast retention holster.
    My fastest CC rig was a belly bag. Even so, from start to bang took a full second. My fastest OC rig is a low-slung holster, and that's less than half a second. Will the half-second advantage make that much of a difference? Perhaps, perhaps not. Depends on the situation.

    I prefer to OC in part because of that advantage, and in part because of it's deterrence. I really wish the FBI crime stats included OC vs CC differentiation info.

    Um, no, she doesn't have a sister like her, and she is against having another threesome, unless, she said, it's Charlize Theron.
    "Another?"
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  23. #23
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    The challenges are based on the two assertions put forth by those who oppose OC that, if you OC, (1) some BG is going to come into the room, notice that you have an OCed gun, and preemptively take you out, or (2) some BG will sneak up on you and snatch your OCed gun.

    Both of those scenarios are talking about an OCer (not police, military, or security) going about his business and being targeted specifically for a snatch (not a robbery or an assault that results in the BG in possession of the gun) or for preemptive fire. I have no doubt that folks with guns are targeted all the time. It happens every day on the battlefield. However, we are talking ordinary citizens OCing as they go about their business here.

    Based on your post count and the fact that you did not bother looking for these challenges before "answering" them, I would offer the friendly suggestion that you do a lot more reading here before playing gotcha with the folks here.

    GS: I thought a prolific poster from WI, who no longer posts here, had indeed offered a reward--or, at least, had mentioned one offered by someone else.

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    GS: I thought a prolific poster from WI, who no longer posts here, had indeed offered a reward--or, at least, had mentioned one offered by someone else.
    You may be right, but I do not recall seeing the posting.

    Presume you are referring to Master DH - sure wish all of that knowledge and energy had been more consistently directed in a positive way.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Based on your post count and the fact that you did not bother looking for these challenges before "answering" them, I would offer the friendly suggestion that you do a lot more reading here before playing gotcha with the folks here.
    First, thanks for replying. Second, I have no idea what you're talking about in "playing gotcha". Third that was HER comment not mine, related to herself being small and relatively weak and a possible target of a gun grab. Her emphasis was actually more on the element of surprise that CC affords over OC (again her thoughts), and that OC is just asking for comments from LEOs and civilians alike. I'll agree I share her thoughts on the 'telegraphing' and wanting to stay below the radar. I have only told two people I'm carrying (brother and father).

    You might be surprised to know that I've read the majority of the substantive posts on here going back several years.

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