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Thread: School bus stop

  1. #1
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    School bus stop

    i cant find anything about this so i figure i would ask here, is a school bus stop a gun free zone for non-CPL holders
    eg. i go out to the bus stop to get my GF's 6YO sister off the bus and im OCing
    i was wondering because at my bus stop when i was in high school an 18YO student was told that they have to step about 10 ft away from the bus stop if they were smoking a cig, quoting the tobacco free school policy
    thank you in advance

  2. #2
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    Last edited by lapeer20m; 02-16-2011 at 08:52 PM.
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  3. #3
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    No such MCL here in michigan.

    there are other definitions for school or school property, but here is the definition that deals specifically with firearms and schools....



    http://legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28xwf...0AND%20firearm
    I think it would be a rare event, but could a prosecutor push the issue if he/she wanted to, and would a jury convict? I would hope not, but there is always that possibility that "letter c" above could be used:

    c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.

    The word "function" means:

    1.the kind of action or activity proper to a person, thing, or institution; the purpose for which something is designed or exists; role.
    2.any ceremonious public or social gathering or occasion.
    3.a factor related to or dependent upon other factors: Price is a function of supply and demand.

    function. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged. Retrieved February 15, 2011, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/function


    (there are more, but for our discussion these probably suffice)

    I could see someone thinking that the law is speaking to # 2 above, and a prosecutor is thinking #1; see the problem? Much like the prosecutor who believes a CPL (Concelaed Pistol License) means you can only carry 1 pistol... otherwise the legislature would have named it a Concealed Pistols License, think it's a bunch of bs. But then again, what I think is immaterial.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 02-15-2011 at 07:08 PM.
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  4. #4
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I think it would be a rare event, but could a prosecutor push the issue if he/she wanted to, and would a jury convict? I would hope not, but there is always that possibility that "letter c" above could be used:

    c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.

    The word "function" means:

    1.the kind of action or activity proper to a person, thing, or institution; the purpose for which something is designed or exists; role.
    2.any ceremonious public or social gathering or occasion.
    3.a factor related to or dependent upon other factors: Price is a function of supply and demand.

    function. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged. Retrieved February 15, 2011, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/function


    (there are more, but for our discussion these probably suffice)

    I could see someone thinking that the law is speaking to # 2 above, and a prosecutor is thinking #1; see the problem? Much like the prosecutor who believes a CPL (Concelaed Pistol License) means you can only carry 1 pistol... otherwise the legislature would have named it a Concealed Pistols License, think it's a bunch of bs. But then again, what I think is immaterial.
    Impart means to give; bestow; communicate

    I don't think the school "imparts" instructions at bus stops. I have yet see a teacher holding class at the local bus stop, which happens to be my drive way, if that was the case, I guess my drive way would be a PFZ
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    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    my guess based on cited law given here would be NO not a school area or PFZ but that wouldn't be the safe answer. unfortunately i live on a corner which makes me a bus stop. parents see me OC all the time and not a word.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    my guess based on cited law given here would be NO not a school area or PFZ but that wouldn't be the safe answer. unfortunately i live on a corner which makes me a bus stop. parents see me OC all the time and not a word.
    Yeah but you look like a cop.

    Plus don't you use one of these?
    http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/TAC109-1.html
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 02-15-2011 at 10:31 PM.
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    ok Thank you all for your answers i will OC carefully at the bus stop

  8. #8
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    Impart means to give; bestow; communicate

    I don't think the school "imparts" instructions at bus stops. I have yet see a teacher holding class at the local bus stop, which happens to be my drive way, if that was the case, I guess my drive way would be a PFZ
    The definition uses the word "or". I'm not saying that I think it is a School Zone, I'm just saying that I could see someone be charged. At that point, it would be up to a jury. Even if one wins, how much money do you think you would need to spend?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  9. #9
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenkaiWulf View Post
    ok Thank you all for your answers i will OC carefully at the bus stop
    Always a wise choice.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    IMO if a bus stop was a school then there could be a roaming 1000' PFZ...

    No, I wouldn't worry about it.
    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

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    Dr. Todd, you forgot section d...

    (d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.

    Note: ...AND A VEHICLE...

    Scary, but this is a school bus, this is the van used to transport athletes to and from school sanctioned events and yes, this might also include students' vehicles that travel from the school to a vo-tech center during the school day, IMHO. And yes, I believe a creative prosecutor could use this to create a 1000' roving WFSZ. It's not what we think they might to, it is what they can do that matters...

    Carry on

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I think it would be a rare event, but could a prosecutor push the issue if he/she wanted to, and would a jury convict? I would hope not, but there is always that possibility that "letter c" above could be used:

    c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.

    The word "function" means:

    1.the kind of action or activity proper to a person, thing, or institution; the purpose for which something is designed or exists; role.
    2.any ceremonious public or social gathering or occasion.
    3.a factor related to or dependent upon other factors: Price is a function of supply and demand.

    function. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged. Retrieved February 15, 2011, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/function


    (there are more, but for our discussion these probably suffice)

    I could see someone thinking that the law is speaking to # 2 above, and a prosecutor is thinking #1; see the problem? Much like the prosecutor who believes a CPL (Concelaed Pistol License) means you can only carry 1 pistol... otherwise the legislature would have named it a Concealed Pistols License, think it's a bunch of bs. But then again, what I think is immaterial.

  12. #12
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmlefler View Post
    Dr. Todd, you forgot section d...

    (d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.

    Note: ...AND A VEHICLE...

    Scary, but this is a school bus, this is the van used to transport athletes to and from school sanctioned events and yes, this might also include students' vehicles that travel from the school to a vo-tech center during the school day, IMHO. And yes, I believe a creative prosecutor could use this to create a 1000' roving WFSZ. It's not what we think they might to, it is what they can do that matters...

    Carry on

    Federal 1000' zones don't apply if you have a permit from the State. Go read the Federal Statute. A permit from the State -- like a Permit to Purchase/Possess -- or a CPL.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

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    Thanks! I have read the Federal Statute and what you say is what I believe. But, what you and I believe to be true doesn't prevent a prosecutor from following what he believes to be true - case in point, the current situation that MOC is facing at the Lansing libraries...

    Carry on

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Federal 1000' zones don't apply if you have a permit from the State. Go read the Federal Statute. A permit from the State -- like a Permit to Purchase/Possess -- or a CPL.

  14. #14
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmlefler View Post
    Thanks! I have read the Federal Statute and what you say is what I believe. But, what you and I believe to be true doesn't prevent a prosecutor from following what he believes to be true - case in point, the current situation that MOC is facing at the Lansing libraries...

    Carry on
    Just a reminder that there are two (2) laws dealing with this: the one that I mentioned is the State of Michigan's Law, the other is Federal Law. Being exempt from the Federal Law does not exempt a person from Michigan's.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 02-24-2011 at 11:45 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Depends on where the bus stop is.....

    Im gonna have to say you can legally carry to a bus stop if the bus stop is not on school property. Now the reaction you get from the driver if he/she notices may be different. He may see a "nutjob" with a firearm and just drive off, call the police, etc. However, I believe you will be will within your legal right to carry a firearm if you are on public property.

    If I am wrong, could someone please enlighten me.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    Yeah but you look like a cop.

    Plus don't you use one of these?
    http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/TAC109-1.html
    Awww, they look cute. I wanna get one. I wonder if that case comes in pink?
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  17. #17
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Just a reminder that there are two (2) laws dealing with this: the one that I mentioned is the State of Michigan's Law, the other is Federal Law. Being exempt from the Federal Law does not exempt a person from Michigan's.
    Yeah, but does the Michigan law mention a distance? I think in Michigan, it's just that you can't be on school property with a gun. It's the federal law that creates a PFZ of 1000 feet around school property. And does the federal law define school property, or does it just say "schools?"
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    With the 1000 ft. rule, my front yard (3 doors down from a school), is in a PFZ...?

  19. #19
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurotour View Post
    With the 1000 ft. rule, my front yard (3 doors down from a school), is in a PFZ...?
    I don't think it applies to residential property.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Eagle View Post
    IMO if a bus stop was a school then there could be a roaming 1000' PFZ...
    I made this ridiculous comment because I thought we all knew that it wasn't true.
    MI actually has 2 licenses; a License to Purchase, Carry, Possess (an oc license lets call it a LPCP)
    and a CPL. Both get rid of the 1000 foot rule. Just don't step on the bus.
    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

  21. #21
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    With a CPL, you could, as long as you were open. Bring your recorder.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurotour View Post
    With the 1000 ft. rule, my front yard (3 doors down from a school), is in a PFZ...?
    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    (B)Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii)if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    (iii) that is—

    (I) not loaded; and

    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;


    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or

    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
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  23. #23
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    It's my understanding that the Federal Statute uses the State's definition of a school...

    J

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    Yeah, but does the Michigan law mention a distance? I think in Michigan, it's just that you can't be on school property with a gun. It's the federal law that creates a PFZ of 1000 feet around school property. And does the federal law define school property, or does it just say "schools?"

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmlefler View Post
    It's my understanding that the Federal Statute uses the State's definition of a school...

    J
    Ahh, but does the federal law SAY that it uses the state's definition? For that matter, does the federal law say "schools" or "school property?" Everything is in the semantics, specially when you get to court.
    Last edited by Big Gay Al; 02-27-2011 at 06:25 AM.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    I possess a Michigan CPL and if I go to Ohio then the 1000ft federal law would apply to me. How the heck am I supposed to carry legally outside my state in any densely populated area where there are schools everywhere?

    It looks to me that state reciprocity regarding CPLs is virtually meaningless in urban areas and is more akin to navigating a legal minefield.
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