School bus stop

With a CPL, you could, as long as you were open. Bring your recorder.

Eurotour said:

With the 1000 ft. rule, my front yard (3 doors down from a school), is in a PFZ...?

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(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

(B)Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

(i) on private property not part of school grounds;

(ii)if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

(iii) that is—

(I) not loaded; and

(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;


(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or

(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

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Bronson

It's my understanding that the Federal Statute uses the State's definition of a school...

J

Big Gay Al said:

Yeah, but does the Michigan law mention a distance? I think in Michigan, it's just that you can't be on school property with a gun. It's the federal law that creates a PFZ of 1000 feet around school property. And does the federal law define school property, or does it just say "schools?"

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jmlefler said:

It's my understanding that the Federal Statute uses the State's definition of a school...

J

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Ahh, but does the federal law SAY that it uses the state's definition? For that matter, does the federal law say "schools" or "school property?" Everything is in the semantics, specially when you get to court.

I possess a Michigan CPL and if I go to Ohio then the 1000ft federal law would apply to me. How the heck am I supposed to carry legally outside my state in any densely populated area where there are schools everywhere?

It looks to me that state reciprocity regarding CPLs is virtually meaningless in urban areas and is more akin to navigating a legal minefield.

What, my friend, did they close your google account?

DefinitionsTitle 18 U.S.C. §921(25)
The term “school zone” means— (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school. (26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law

Again, this thread is in regard to the possiblity of being charged... I see an 'agressive' prosecutor trying to make a name for themselves possibly massaging this unclear mish-mash...

However, under "MCL 257.627a "Regularly scheduled school session," "school," and "school zone" defined; prima facie speed limit in school zone; signs; applicability of section to walkway; location of school; school in session year-round" I found this little gem...

(c) "School zone" means school property on which a school building is located and the area adjacent to the school property that is designated by the signs required under subsection (2). Except as otherwise provided in subsection (5), the school zone extends not more than 1,000 feet from the property line of the school in each direction.

But, again, in regards to Michigan's Weapon Free School Zone we have this...

(b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental
kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12.
(c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.
(d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.

So if the Federal law uses the State definition of school, and then describes the 'school zone' as limited to the property and an inclusive 1000' zone, then you may be clear of the Federal law in regard to vehicles. Then, the Michigan Weapon Free School zone would kick in and you could be in violation if near a Weapon Free School Zone aka a transport vehicle.

This is so unclear...

Carry on

Big Gay Al said:

Ahh, but does the federal law SAY that it uses the state's definition? For that matter, does the federal law say "schools" or "school property?" Everything is in the semantics, specially when you get to court.

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jmlefler said:

What, my friend, did they close your google account?

DefinitionsTitle 18 U.S.C. §921(25)
The term “school zone” means— (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school. (26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law

Again, this thread is in regard to the possiblity of being charged... I see an 'agressive' prosecutor trying to make a name for themselves possibly massaging this unclear mish-mash...

However, under "MCL 257.627a "Regularly scheduled school session," "school," and "school zone" defined; prima facie speed limit in school zone; signs; applicability of section to walkway; location of school; school in session year-round" I found this little gem...

(c) "School zone" means school property on which a school building is located and the area adjacent to the school property that is designated by the signs required under subsection (2). Except as otherwise provided in subsection (5), the school zone extends not more than 1,000 feet from the property line of the school in each direction.

But, again, in regards to Michigan's Weapon Free School Zone we have this...

(b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental
kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12.
(c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.
(d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.

So if the Federal law uses the State definition of school, and then describes the 'school zone' as limited to the property and an inclusive 1000' zone, then you may be clear of the Federal law in regard to vehicles. Then, the Michigan Weapon Free School zone would kick in and you could be in violation if near a Weapon Free School Zone aka a transport vehicle.

This is so unclear...

Carry on

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Well, I'd say yes and no. To me, the lack of clarity might provide the wriggle room needed to avoid prosecution. While state law defines both the school and school property, the federal law only stipulates that we must remain 1000 feet away from the school as defined by state law. Also notice, federal law doesn't use the word "property" it says "grounds." Now some might try to interpret that as property, but, I don't think it would hold up in court....assuming you get a level headed judge. Of course, in the US 9th Circus, er, I mean Circuit court, that might be a different matter.

To me, the main thing is this, has this law kept any criminals from attacking our children in schools, or has it only been used to prosecute other wise innocent civilians, who didn't know any better? If it was the latter, and not the former, then it's time this law went away.

i would like to see the school zone law repealed but more importantly i would like to see the OC w/o a CPL allowed in places with liquor licences that do not serve alcohol. people like me who do not have a CPL for the sole reason that i am not old enough are severely restricted from carrying many many places because of that law :cuss::banghead::cuss::banghead:

RenkaiWulf said:

i would like to see the school zone law repealed but more importantly i would like to see the OC w/o a CPL allowed in places with liquor licences that do not serve alcohol. people like me who do not have a CPL for the sole reason that i am not old enough are severely restricted from carrying many many places because of that law :cuss::banghead::cuss::banghead:

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I wouldn't mind that either, but, at the risk of being a nitpicker, this thread is about school bus stops and whether or not they are "schools" as defined in US code. So, to avoid going off topic, I'd recommend starting another thread, before the "usual suspects" join in.