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Thread: This is what P4P and the NRA brings ya!

  1. #1
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    This is what P4P and the NRA brings ya!

    Utah Permit bill forcing out of state residents to get a permit in their state first.

    Supported by NRA

    Here is the justification from the bill's sponsor:

    Valentine said the bill would give states control over their own residents...

    Link: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51...state.html.csp
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Where did you see that it was supported by the NRA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Utah Permit bill forcing out of state residents to get a permit in their state first.

    Supported by NRA

    Here is the justification from the bill's sponsor:

    Valentine said the bill would give states control over their own residents...

    Link: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51...state.html.csp
    I did not see the support from the NRA in the Article. Did I miss it, or did you get that information from another source?

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    Campaign Veteran kimbercarrier's Avatar
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    All I have to say to the NRA is

    I'm so glad they are always willing to jump in and help us. sarcasm off.

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    This bill was supported by Alice Tripp, the lobbyist for the TEXAS STATE RIFLE ASSOCIATION. I received an e-mail from her a few weeks ago in which she praised this bill. Her reason for supporting this bill, was likely due to CHL instructors in Texas who didn't like losing revenue from potential customers who were getting licenses from Utah.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccwinstructor View Post
    I did not see the support from the NRA in the Article. Did I miss it, or did you get that information from another source?
    There was a point to the SL Tribune article fom the Ammoland daily news summary which stated the bill was supported by the NRA.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    C2I2 is a bacterial infection

    Quote Originally Posted by 44Brent View Post
    This bill was supported by Alice Tripp, the lobbyist for the TEXAS STATE RIFLE ASSOCIATION. I received an e-mail from her a few weeks ago in which she praised this bill. Her reason for supporting this bill, was likely due to CHL instructors in Texas who didn't like losing revenue from potential customers who were getting licenses from Utah.
    Concealed Carry Instruction Industry = C2I2
    Perks for Permittees = P4P

    This is not a surprise.

    C2I2 always supports P4P, as this is jobs preservation. The NRA is the largest C2I2 organization in the nation. Many states have "NRA certified instructor" written into their laws as the only one that can provide the required instruction.

    C2I2 is a bacterial infection that feeds off of P4P. Constitutional Carry is the antibiotic.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    C2I2 is a bacterial infection that feeds off of P4P. Constitutional Carry is the antibiotic.
    Doug Huffman wishes me to share his "approval and heartfelt thanks" for this remark.

    Seeing as I could not agree more, I thought I would do publicly.

    So, +1

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    People should be getting permits in their own state first, and then subsequent states if they wish to. Nothing wrong with the Utah bill at all.

    I articulated my reasoning in the previous thread about this bill, but suffice it to say, there are plenty of reasons this bill was a good idea.

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    The permits would go away, if the sheep would stop consenting to State Control.
    The U.S. Constitution is all the PERMIT you need.
    Life is tough, its tougher when your stupid.

    http://www.itsnotthelaw.com

    Feds: U.C.C. 1-308, State: U.C.C. 1-207, Both: U.C.C. 1-103.6

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Doug Huffman wishes me to share his "approval and heartfelt thanks" for this remark.

    Seeing as I could not agree more, I thought I would do publicly.

    So, +1
    i miss Doug alot. he's my friend, and i am NOT ashamed of that!

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan45cal View Post
    ...there are plenty of reasons this bill was a good idea.
    Name one.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    i miss Doug alot. he's my friend, and i am NOT ashamed of that!
    I missed Doug too. So, I found his email address and we are in contact. Doug's good people.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan45cal View Post
    People should be getting permits in their own state first, and then subsequent states if they wish to. Nothing wrong with the Utah bill at all.
    At $150 a pop, ten permits would cost me $1,500, not to mention the time required for the paperwork, and possibly having to take a firearms safety course for each and every state (brings the total to $2,500).

    That's rather insane, and is why reciprocity laws were established, such that if I have a CHP here in Colorado, I can CC in all the states painted blue.

    I articulated my reasoning in the previous thread about this bill, but suffice it to say, there are plenty of reasons this bill was a good idea.
    Nope. Not a one. Thundar, in post #6, hit the nail on the head as to why this bill should die, and Constitutional Carry should be incorporated into every State's Constitution.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan45cal View Post
    People should be getting permits in their own state first, and then subsequent states if they wish to. Nothing wrong with the Utah bill at all.

    I articulated my reasoning in the previous thread about this bill, but suffice it to say, there are plenty of reasons this bill was a good idea.
    and that leaves the folks that live in states like MD, NY, NJ, etc with what option?

    This bill is just stupid.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
    -- George Washington

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    since9,

    I meant that people should be getting a permit in the state they live in, first. I did not say to get a permit for every state you ever travel to.

    Walt_Kowalski,

    You may want to do more research on this bill before trashing it. This bill doesn't apply to states in which Utah does NOT have a reciprocal agreement with. Citizens in those states can still apply for a Utah permit without one in their home state.

    As for reasons why this bill was a good idea, how about knowing the laws of the state you actually live in; not one located 1,000 miles away from you?

    As an example: in Utah, signs carry no force of law. In my state ALL signs carry the force of law, carry a criminal charge, and possible permanent revocation of your carry permit. Might be something you want to know? Remind me what they go over in CCW classes again; would state laws regarding firearms be one of the topics? In Utah, you can carry in schools; in my state, it's a felony. I also recall that in Texas, people who were NOT eligible for a carry permit there were circumventing CCW law by getting a Utah permit. I really love the idea of those guys carrying.

    Shall I go on?
    Last edited by Ryan45cal; 02-25-2011 at 03:09 PM.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan45cal View Post
    As for reasons why this bill was a good idea, how about knowing the laws of the state you actually live in; not one located 1,000 miles away from you?

    As an example: in Utah, signs carry no force of law. In my state ALL signs carry the force of law, carry a criminal charge, and possible permanent revocation of your carry permit. Might be something you want to know? Remind me what they go over in CCW classes again; would state laws regarding firearms be one of the topics? In Utah, you can carry in schools; in my state, it's a felony. I also recall that in Texas, people who were NOT eligible for a carry permit there were circumventing CCW law by getting a Utah permit. I really love the idea of those guys carrying.

    Shall I go on?
    You could start with a reason that made sense in the first place.

    Stay with me here. We'll go through this nice and slow...

    In many states, a nonresident permit (in some cases any permit) from another state is not recognized. Furthermore, in certain other states (which unsurprisingly also fall into the first category) folks have a very hard time getting a permit at all.

    See, for example, myself. While I am able to establish residency at will in either Virginia or California, as a practical matter I must go with the state from which I have my driver's license, which is necessarily California while I am in school. As, therefore, a "San Francisco resident" in the context of applying for a concealed weapons permit in either state, I am unable to get such a permit, since the City (illegally) won't issue them.

    (Not to mention that I'm already quite a bit more knowledgeable in California (and Virginia) law than any C2I () class might hope to render its students.)

    Now, what the hell does Utah accomplish by making me get a permit here first? Do you think I'm unqualified due to my place of residence?

    And what is the point of making sure I "know the laws of my own state" for a permit which isn't even valid in my own state? Perhaps Utah should also start requiring training in Pakistani carry laws (only for out of state carriers, of course), since we're so concerned with places totally unrelated to where the permit will be used?

    Do go on, Ryan. Do go on.
    Last edited by marshaul; 02-25-2011 at 03:43 PM.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan45cal View Post
    People should be getting permits in their own state first, and then subsequent states if they wish to. Nothing wrong with the Utah bill at all.

    I articulated my reasoning in the previous thread about this bill, but suffice it to say, there are plenty of reasons this bill was a good idea.
    Maine issues permits at 18. Other states at 21. Some recognize the Maine permit at 18, some don't.

    Nothing wrong with the Utah bill if you believe in P4P.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    yes sir!

    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    At $150 a pop, ten permits would cost me $1,500, not to mention the time required for the paperwork, and possibly having to take a firearms safety course for each and every state (brings the total to $2,500).

    That's rather insane, and is why reciprocity laws were established, such that if I have a CHP here in Colorado, I can CC in all the states painted blue.



    Nope. Not a one. Thundar, in post #6, hit the nail on the head as to why this bill should die, and Constitutional Carry should be incorporated into every State's Constitution.
    constitutional carry in every state in the union. its only natural, its only right!
    JP

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan45cal View Post
    since9,

    I meant that people should be getting a permit in the state they live in, first.
    By "first" you imply there's a "second." What's "second?"

    Citizens in those states can still apply for a Utah permit without one in their home state.
    Oh, joy. So I have to pay twice as much if I want to carry into a neighboring state. That's not terribly bright.

    As for reasons why this bill was a good idea, how about knowing the laws of the state you actually live in; not one located 1,000 miles away from you?
    That's actually a good point, and is something all CCers need to remember. However, I'd much rather our 2A rights extend to unrestriced OC and CC, with no exceptions other than the usual ones such as beyond electronic scanners (courthouses, airport terminals, etc).

    I also recall that in Texas, people who were NOT eligible for a carry permit there were circumventing CCW law by getting a Utah permit. I really love the idea of those guys carrying.

    Shall I go on?
    Please do! You're making a wonderful case for the national reciprocity bill.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    And what is the point of making sure I "know the laws of my own state" for a permit which isn't even valid in my own state? Perhaps Utah should also start requiring training in Pakistani carry laws (only for out of state carriers, of course), since we're so concerned with places totally unrelated to where the permit will be used?
    Excellent analogy, marshaul.
    Last edited by since9; 02-27-2011 at 09:19 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  20. #20
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    No. He is simply explaining a misconception about the proposed Utah law.

    Let's save the national reciprocity debate for the thread already started for it. It won't pass anyway. An odd alliance of antis (who want to kill it for expedient reasons) and Liberty-lovers (who want it killed on the principle of States' Rights) will far outnumber those who support it because of its expedience for carry.

    Anyway, I'll move on. This thread is supposed to be about Utah's nonresident permits. (I fully expect a rant on why we need national reciprocity to be posted here in a show of defiance. I won't respond and hope that others choose to keep that from side-tracking this thread.)

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    It would appear that I need a flame suit for this thread. I'll remember one next time I post in this subforum on OCDO.

    In many states, a nonresident permit (in some cases any permit) from another state is not recognized.
    In some states that is the case, yes.

    Furthermore, in certain other states (which unsurprisingly also fall into the first category) folks have a very hard time getting a permit at all.
    And in those states, the Utah bill (which passed unanimously I might add), exempts them from getting a permit in their home state before applying to Utah.

    See, for example, myself. While I am able to establish residency at will in either Virginia or California, as a practical matter I must go with the state from which I have my driver's license, which is necessarily California while I am in school. As, therefore, a "San Francisco resident" in the context of applying for a concealed weapons permit in either state, I am unable to get such a permit, since the City (illegally) won't issue them.
    Read above in that the Utah bill de facto exempts those living in may issue states.

    (Not to mention that I'm already quite a bit more knowledgeable in California (and Virginia) law than any C2I () class might hope to render its students.)
    I think we all know that the vast majority of gun owners are not well informed in regarding to open and concealed carry. The folks here on OCDO have vastly more knowledge.

    Now, what the hell does Utah accomplish by making me get a permit here first? Do you think I'm unqualified due to my place of residence?

    And what is the point of making sure I "know the laws of my own state" for a permit which isn't even valid in my own state? Perhaps Utah should also start requiring training in Pakistani carry laws (only for out of state carriers, of course), since we're so concerned with places totally unrelated to where the permit will be used?
    Some states have very lax CCW laws, others have very strict CCW laws. A CCW class, at the very least, goes over some of the laws relating to CCW in the state that you currently live. That is why people who live in a shall issue state need to get a permit in their state to carry. If they want to apply for other non-resident permits to expand reciprocity after that, then by all means.

    Your crack about "Pakistani" is way off. Utah should only train people in Utah laws. States in which residents live train them on the respective laws. This is why they should not be getting a Utah permit to carry in the state which they live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    By "first" you imply there's a "second." What's "second?"
    Second would be a non-resident permit; which in this case, would be from Utah.

    Oh, joy. So I have to pay twice as much if I want to carry into a neighboring state. That's not terribly bright.
    /Sarcasm No, that is why they established reciprocity long ago. /Sarcasm

    Please do! You're making a wonderful case for the national reciprocity bill.
    Yes, we all want the criminals and various thugs that are prohibited from carrying in Texas, to carry elsewhere under some other CCW permit, like Utah. You're making an excellent case for national reciprocity as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Nope. Not a one. Thundar, in post #6, hit the nail on the head as to why this bill should die, and Constitutional Carry should be incorporated into every State's Constitution.
    "Should." Until then......
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  24. #24
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Suggest you all read through some of these related threads in the Utah and Virginia forums.

    Basically, Utah is caving to the whining of other states like Texas, who are threatening to rescind reciprocity for various reasons. It's all about the money, which is not surprising, but is quite disturbing when you think about it. Texas is trying to protect their CHP revenue stream.

    So because of this, residents of such states as Virginia, who have real-world legitimate concerns for not getting a resident CHP first, are left out to dry.

    I do understand Utah trying to maintain the best value of their permit for their own residents first, but there are several ways they could have fixed this without impacting other states that had no beef with them.

    For those who are not aware of the issue, Virginia currently treats CHP application information as a public record. So anyone who is seeking a CHP for protection from a domestic violence situation must put on record for anyone to see, their current address and other personal information. This policy also gives would-be criminals a nice convenient list of houses with guns that they can scope out and rob.

    We would very much like to "fix" this problem in Virginia, but much like liberal legislators in other news headlines these days, the Virginia Senate has chosen to openly and flagrantly violate their own rules to illegally kill bills that would otherwise pass.

    When your lawmakers won't follow their own laws, society starts down the road of anarchy... and our only hope is to vote these scoundrels out and start over again.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Concealed Carry Instruction Industry = C2I2
    Perks for Permittees = P4P

    This is not a surprise.

    C2I2 always supports P4P, as this is jobs preservation. The NRA is the largest C2I2 organization in the nation. Many states have "NRA certified instructor" written into their laws as the only one that can provide the required instruction.

    C2I2 is a bacterial infection that feeds off of P4P. Constitutional Carry is the antibiotic.
    I think you are being pretty unfair to the instructors. This idea that all permit instructors are out to screw you over with RTKBA is unfairly prejudicial.

    What are you doing to help people and save lives? (trolling on Internet forums and making enemies doesn't count)

    I have several instructor friends in Arizona who lost half their business, but I would support the same changes in NM if it came up. Sure I'd lose some business, but people still need training, especially those who didn't grow up around guns.

    Bring 'constitutional carry' on. I look forward to helping new shooters gain the knowledge, skills and attitude necessary to defend themselves without a piece of plastic in their wallets. I studied marketing in college and worked several marketing jobs before I became an instructor. I'm confident my business will survive when the CHL aspect of it goes away at some point in the future. I am an antibiotic-resistant strain of firearms instructor.

    I do CHL courses today because with today's laws, that's what it takes to carry. Am I evil and anti-RTKBA because I do this?

    Again, what great thing are you doing to help people that gives you the right to judge me thus?

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