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Thread: questions on open carry

  1. #1
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    questions on open carry

    Hey everyone I have always known about open carry in Michigan but just recently I have decided to start to look more into my rights to open carry. I have been lurking on this sight all week and trying to read up on the laws concerning open carry. I know about most of the laws concerning OC but I have a few questions I want to ask you guys (and girls) before I OC in public.
    First question: right now I am on probation for possession of alcohol as a minor, does this affect my right to OC.
    #2: I plan on OC when I go on walks around my city (Marquette). I like to walk and ride my bike on the nature trails that are all around the city. I know that OC’ing then getting on a motorcycle turns it into CC . Does riding a bicycle do the same? Also if I get stopped by DNR well out and about in the woods OC’ing can they harass me for poaching or any other law? would they have to prove that I was hunting or in some way taking game?

    I hope to soon become more comfortable with OC in public and any tips or advice from you guys would be great!

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    1 more quetion i forgot to ask.
    i am not a cpl holder and if i want to oc at a place and drive a car there when i am in my trunk readying my firearm for open carry if the police arive at that moment could they charge me with brandishing a firearm for the fact that i am holding it out in the open in public

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    pacman,

    Welcome to OCDO first off. Also, your location shows Livonia, Mi, but you mention Marquette as your city, may wish to change this in your profile, be proud of your Yooper status! I am in Lake Linden myself, about 2.5 hours north of you. Of course, you could be a NMU student and back in Livonia sometime soon, if so, I pity you, as I have fallen in love with the UP myself.

    OCing and getting in a vehicle should be a non-event, as is OCing itself. But do this safely, securely, and in a non-event and routine manner. Find a way that works for you. If possible remove the entire holster as you gently and slowly place your firearm in the trunk of the vehicle or other secure place. Once in the trunk, or out of sight from prying eyes, then safely remove any ammo. The reverse would be true as well. Other then brandishing, which we will discuss next, there is no real laws covering switching from lawful carry of a firearm to transporting. Use good, sound, safe, and practical judgment and think it through and you will be fine.

    In the great State of Michigan we have no legal definition of "brandishing" so we rely on the dictionary definition. Brandishing, look it up in a dictionary for a cite please, involves waving, flaunting, or threatening with. Storing your firearm in a safe manner is not considered brandishing.

    There is no need to worry on your past offense. If you can legally own or possess the handgun, which you must legally possess it if you are carrying it, then you can legally open carry it on your person. Getting your CPL may be another issue, haven't needed to look that one up myself.

    You should be fine ona bicycle, although an LEO may challenge your ability to do that, so be prepared. Below is a quote I stole from another member on another thread, Michigander. Thanks for the cite easy to find for my reproduction here Michigander I would actually carry that cite with me, but I carry quite a few with me so I can quote and point out the actual law to any confused or misguided LEO's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Looks like the law DOES allow bike carry.

    750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 227d.
    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Taken down.
    (b) Enclosed in a case.
    (c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
    (d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.
    (2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982
    © 2007 Legislative Council, State of Michigan

    It's the only law I've seen that covers both man powered vehicles and firearms. And if there are no laws prohibiting a behavior...
    I know the DNR and hunting rules and laws complicate things. It has been discussed many times but i do not consider myself very knowledgeable in that area of firearms law and will allow someone else a chance to answer that question for you.

    Good luck, welcome to the forums and movement, and carry on

    -northofnowhere

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    northofnowhere thanks for all the great help clearing things up for me! as you guessed in your first paragraph i am a nmu student and i spend about half my time up in da U.P and half down state. i have been looking forward to joining the open carry comunity for some time now, now i can do so confidently.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northofnowhere View Post
    pacman,
    OCing and getting in a vehicle should be a non-event, as is OCing itself. But do this safely, securely, and in a non-event and routine manner. Find a way that works for you. If possible remove the entire holster as you gently and slowly place your firearm in the trunk of the vehicle or other secure place. Once in the trunk, or out of sight from prying eyes, then safely remove any ammo. The reverse would be true as well. Other then brandishing, which we will discuss next, there is no real laws covering switching from lawful carry of a firearm to transporting. Use good, sound, safe, and practical judgment and think it through and you will be fine.

    -northofnowhere
    Yes... welcome Pacman.

    I would think that a LEO could consider handling the gun inside the trunk or otherwise inside the vehicle as possessing a pistol in a vehicle and that requires a CPL. No CPL but gun is "inside" the vehicle would, or could, result in getting arrested.

    And I think that charge would, or could, hold up simply because the gun really was "inside" the vehicle... and since the gun was in the hands of the person.. while the gun was in the vehicle... then the person was in possession of a pistol inside a vehicle.

    Yeah, I know that leaves only the option of handling the gun in plain view of anyone who could consider it to be "brandishing"....So.... in this area of the law I am of the opinion that we are damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

    But I would think (my opinion only and I am NOT an attorney!) that it would be easier to defend against a brandishing charge than a clear cut case of possessing a pistol "inside" a vehicle.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Welcome to the site.
    (note this became a bit longer than I intended, sorry)

    There has been conversations on this forum before about a Bicycle vs Motor Vehicle and

    as we all know, according to current Michigan law a person can not "open carry" in a motor vehicle.

    Michigan defines a motor vehicle in part as:

    257.33 “Motor vehicle” defined.
    Sec. 33. “Motor vehicle” means every vehicle that is self-propelled .....
    there are some exceptions to this law, but I feel safe in saying our family car or a Motorcycle is a Motor Vehicle.


    then we must look up self-propelled....

    One common definition is:
    self-propelled vehicle - a wheeled vehicle that carries in itself a means of propulsion

    Now lets look at the Michigan definition for Bicycle:

    257.4 “Bicycle” defined.
    Sec. 4. “Bicycle” means a device propelled by human power upon which a person may ride, having either
    2 or 3 wheels in a tandem or tricycle arrangement, all of which are over 14 inches in diameter.
    History: 1949, Act 300, Eff. Sept. 23, 1949;¾Am. 1971, Act 151, Imd. Eff. Nov. 22, 1971;¾Am. 1975, Act 209, Imd. Eff. Aug. 25,
    1975;¾Am. 1976, Act 439, Imd. Eff. Jan. 13, 1977.

    What we see is that a Bicycle is propelled by human power and is not self-propelled

    We can look at a adult Tricycle someone can buy at a Cycle shop or a Motorcycle Trike and compare how the state handles both.

    Basically anyone can go out and ride a Adult Tricycle, no special license, plates or training required, but Michigan put on a lot more restrictions on a Motorcycle Trike. the really only difference is the motor thus making it self propelled.

    I suggest that in theory of the law and assuming you follow all OCing protocols and laws you should be good to proceed riding your bicycle and OCing, BUT I also say that you may encounter a police officer who will argue that a bicycle is a motor vehicle because the rider is the motor, therefor making it a "motor vehicle".

    Get that CPL than riding your bike becomes a non issue!

    This is just my opinion and While no lawyer, I have watched them on TV!
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by pacman552SD View Post
    Hey everyone I have always known about open carry in Michigan but just recently I have decided to start to look more into my rights to open carry. I have been lurking on this sight all week and trying to read up on the laws concerning open carry. I know about most of the laws concerning OC but I have a few questions I want to ask you guys (and girls) before I OC in public.
    First question: right now I am on probation for possession of alcohol as a minor, does this affect my right to OC.
    #2: I plan on OC when I go on walks around my city (Marquette). I like to walk and ride my bike on the nature trails that are all around the city. I know that OC’ing then getting on a motorcycle turns it into CC . Does riding a bicycle do the same? Also if I get stopped by DNR well out and about in the woods OC’ing can they harass me for poaching or any other law? would they have to prove that I was hunting or in some way taking game?

    I hope to soon become more comfortable with OC in public and any tips or advice from you guys would be great!
    Welcome Pacman! One thing you need to know,since you said you were on probation,is whether your probation allows possession of firearms.You need to check your probation status.Probation guidelines can deny you from legaly possessing firearms in some instances.Check that out before even trying to OC.You do not want to violate your probation and get charged for possessing a firearm illegaly.You do not want to lose your right to bear arms! I know of people who've experienced the loss of their rights in this way! CARRY ON!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    according to current Michigan law a person can not "open carry" in a motor vehicle.
    Not quite. The law doesn't specify "motor vehicle", it only mentions "vehicle."

    750.227
    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    I won't go into the in vs. on question or whether I think a bicycle is a vehicle because what I think doesn't matter. I just wanted to point out that the law regulating pistol carry in a vehicle does NOT specify it must be a motor vehicle.

    Bronson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Not quite. The law doesn't specify "motor vehicle", it only mentions "vehicle."

    750.227


    I won't go into the in vs. on question or whether I think a bicycle is a vehicle because what I think doesn't matter. I just wanted to point out that the law regulating pistol carry in a vehicle does NOT specify it must be a motor vehicle.

    Bronson

    Yep...
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    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Wish I had a cite for the probation thing, but IIRC, probation does prohibit possession. Better call an attorney for that one. I'll PM you a number for a good one. As far as the bycicle goes, I wouldn't recommend it, unless you want to be a test case. We study and discuss these issues to death and we still have debate, so reasonably people who don't do the same, ie LEO's might be having some differences of opinion amongst themselves. The difference is, that they can charge you, they will remain with the benefit of the doubt, and let the courts sort it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Wish I had a cite for the probation thing, but IIRC, probation does prohibit possession. Better call an attorney for that one. I'll PM you a number for a good one. As far as the bycicle goes, I wouldn't recommend it, unless you want to be a test case. We study and discuss these issues to death and we still have debate, so reasonably people who don't do the same, ie LEO's might be having some differences of opinion amongst themselves. The difference is, that they can charge you, they will remain with the benefit of the doubt, and let the courts sort it out.
    Not automatic, depends on the crime. I know one person on probation now and can OC as his PO said he's not prohibited by the probation. So it depends.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    That's why we're here, to help each other, thanks Brian. That's also good news.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    Welcome to the site.
    then we must look up self-propelled....

    One common definition is:
    self-propelled vehicle - a wheeled vehicle that carries in itself a means of propulsion

    Now lets look at the Michigan definition for Bicycle:

    257.4 “Bicycle” defined.
    Sec. 4. “Bicycle” means a device propelled by human power upon which a person may ride, having either
    2 or 3 wheels in a tandem or tricycle arrangement, all of which are over 14 inches in diameter.
    History: 1949, Act 300, Eff. Sept. 23, 1949;¾Am. 1971, Act 151, Imd. Eff. Nov. 22, 1971;¾Am. 1975, Act 209, Imd. Eff. Aug. 25,
    1975;¾Am. 1976, Act 439, Imd. Eff. Jan. 13, 1977.

    What we see is that a Bicycle is propelled by human power and is not self-propelled

    We can look at a adult Tricycle someone can buy at a Cycle shop or a Motorcycle Trike and compare how the state handles both.

    Basically anyone can go out and ride a Adult Tricycle, no special license, plates or training required, but Michigan put on a lot more restrictions on a Motorcycle Trike. the really only difference is the motor thus making it self propelled.
    I agree .
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    went to the local police station because i had to talk to an officer about some stuff we needed to get a car show up and running this summer. well i was there i asked the officer what he new about OC. he said that he and the rest of the department new about it and he said it was "unfortunately" legal i guess everyone is intitled to thier oppinion but whatever

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    Quote Originally Posted by pacman552SD View Post
    went to the local police station because i had to talk to an officer about some stuff we needed to get a car show up and running this summer. well i was there i asked the officer what he new about OC. he said that he and the rest of the department new about it and he said it was "unfortunately" legal i guess everyone is intitled to thier oppinion but whatever
    Yeah that pesky Constitution that gets in the way.
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    Bam!" - eastmeyers

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    Yeah that pesky Constitution that gets in the way.
    Yeah, both of them thingys...

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    considering to OC.

    I myself am considering to open carry(w/o a CPL) and I have a question or two. First, would I be able to carry in, say, a Walmart? MSP update #86 states a person with no CPL can not carry in an establishment that is controled by the Liquer Control Act. Is any place that sells liqure defined by this, or only places that sell liqure by the glass, i.e. a bar?


    My other question is about the definiton of "theatre." Do they mean a Movie Theater or like a "broadway" theatre, that puts on plays and stuff? Thanks for any answers!

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    On theaters, both would apply. On alcohol. No possession on "premises" not just in the building of any place with any liquor license at all. Krogers, Walmart (who supports sweeping gun bans anyhow), bars, everywhere. It does not matter if they currently have alcohol for sale or not, the only thing that is required, is that they have the license.

    Welcome to OCDO. If you even think of maybe having a slightest doubt, always ask. Just today, there was a discussion of the legality of OC on a bicycle without a CPL. Don't.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wellkevi01 View Post
    I myself am considering to open carry(w/o a CPL) and I have a question or two. First, would I be able to carry in, say, a Walmart? MSP update #86 states a person with no CPL can not carry in an establishment that is controled by the Liquer Control Act. Is any place that sells liqure defined by this, or only places that sell liqure by the glass, i.e. a bar?


    My other question is about the definiton of "theatre." Do they mean a Movie Theater or like a "broadway" theatre, that puts on plays and stuff? Thanks for any answers!
    ANY PLACE THAT IS CONTROLLED BY THE LIQUEUR CONTROL ACT, that means any place with a liqueur license, whether they use it or not. So Walmart (if they have one, not all do), Meijer, some gas stations, many restaurants. So by the glass, or if they sell bear in the bottle, or wine by the bottle, or even if they don't sell any alcohol, but still have a liqueur license for whatever reason. And for NON-CPL holders this means the entire premises, even the parking lot.

    As for theater it is debatable, or a gray area to some. But to be safe it means all theaters, including cinemas. I personally believe it does mean (for non-CPL holders) no theaters at all.

    Hope this helps!

    ETA: Welcome!!!
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 02-17-2011 at 02:31 AM.
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    Thank you for the answers, this really helps clarify things.

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    I did EM, not sure yet, but maybe, thanks.

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    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Not quite. The law doesn't specify "motor vehicle", it only mentions "vehicle."

    750.227


    I won't go into the in vs. on question or whether I think a bicycle is a vehicle because what I think doesn't matter. I just wanted to point out that the law regulating pistol carry in a vehicle does NOT specify it must be a motor vehicle.

    Bronson
    I stand corrected, you are correct about that is only say vehicle but a bicycle is not defined as a vehicle under Michigan law

    CHAPTER 257. MOTOR VEHICLES
    MICHIGAN VEHICLE CODE
    Act 300 of 1949

    257.79 “Vehicle” defined.
    Sec. 79. “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except devices exclusively moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks and except, only for the purpose of titling and registration under this act, a
    mobile home as defined in section 2 of the mobile home commission act, Act No. 96 of the Public Acts of
    1987, being section 125.2302 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    History: 1949, Act 300, Eff. Sept. 23, 1949;¾Am. 1976, Act 439, Imd. Eff. Jan. 13, 1977;¾Am. 1978, Act 568, Eff. Jan. 6, 1979;¾
    Am. 1992, Act 134, Eff. Oct. 1, 1992.
    Last edited by Onnie; 02-18-2011 at 09:22 PM.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    I stand corrected, you are correct about that is only say vehicle but a bicycle is not defined as a vehicle under Michigan law

    CHAPTER 257. MOTOR VEHICLES
    MICHIGAN VEHICLE CODE
    Act 300 of 1949

    257.79 “Vehicle” defined.
    Sec. 79. “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except devices exclusively moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks and except, only for the purpose of titling and registration under this act, a
    mobile home as defined in section 2 of the mobile home commission act, Act No. 96 of the Public Acts of
    1987, being section 125.2302 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    History: 1949, Act 300, Eff. Sept. 23, 1949;¾Am. 1976, Act 439, Imd. Eff. Jan. 13, 1977;¾Am. 1978, Act 568, Eff. Jan. 6, 1979;¾
    Am. 1992, Act 134, Eff. Oct. 1, 1992.
    While it is true that the MI Vehicle Code doesn't define a bicycle as a vehicle the problem is that MCL 750.227 doesn't define vehicle or reference another law's definition of vehicle. Without a definition within the law the court will look to other sources for a definition. Appellate court decisions, other laws, or the dictionary are all places they will look for a defintion. I agree that they would most likely take the defintion put forth in the MI vehicle code but there is always the chance that a prosecutor or judge could push a dictionary definition of vehicle.

    Dictionary.com
    Vehicle:

    1. any means in or by which someone travels or something is carried or conveyed; a means of conveyance or transport: a motor vehicle; space vehicles.

    2. a conveyance moving on wheels, runners, tracks, or the like, as a cart, sled, automobile, or tractor.


    Merriam-Webster

    Vehicle:

    a means of carrying or transporting something <planes, trains, and other vehicles>
    I think for the most part you'd be just fine OCing on a bicycle, but the law is ambiguous with undefined terms and that can always be dangerous.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  25. #25
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    That post about me thinking OC on a bicycle with no CPL is legal is exceptionally old, outdated and potentially very wrong, as has been mentioned.

    My advise to anyone who is new to OCing and wants to do it is minimally to read the hell out of the stickied info threads. They are there for a reason.

    You may also wish to purchase the book I wrote on this subject, available from here http://www.citizensleaguesd.com/

    I am anything but a pushy salesmen, plus no one is pocketing money from this book other than the distributors since it's nothing more than a fundraiser for pro gun causes, and I certainly am not trying to brag, but it is the most complete and accurate source of information on open carrying in Michigan which is available. I made it for the advantage of new people mainly, so that they can avoid the sometimes costly mistakes us long time open carriers have made. It is a wise purchase. You can get away with reading the stickies and other info instead, but it will be much harder to get all of that information.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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