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Thread: Why do the people have problems with OC - think I figured it out!

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Why do the people have problems with OC - think I figured it out!

    On another thread I gave my first experience with seeing an OC back in the 80s, and it lead me to a thought that was like a lightbulb going off in my head.

    As males, we instinctively size up the competition, and most of those objecting to OC are (if I'm not mistaken) male. As an unarmed person they see a disparity of force and their reptile brain may be saying "hey, if it came down to the two of us, who would 'get the girl'"

    It's probably totally subconscious, and manifests as a 'hey, you can't do that'. In fact this desire is so strong that it overcomes the rational mind, which may realize we do have a second amendment. Normally docile males who might otherwise mind their own business are spurred to action by this reptile brain.

    LEOs who carry are used to being 'on top of the pecking order' even if they are normally a beta-male - so they see someone OC and it tweaks their sense of being 'elite' and also triggers a reptile brain response, so they just HAVE to confront someone whom they KNOW is not a danger to anyone. I think they actually see a MWAG and think 'I'm gonna go harass this guy and see what happens', when ordinarily they might be more docile. It's a conditioned response from thousands of years of dominance struggles, playing out on the street, and they know enough of what's happening that they don't want anyone to see them trotting out their baser instincts.

    Ironically, as OC advocates, we have to be more docile and more calm and give up the right to be abrasive and confrontational if we want to continue with this practice.

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    Along those lines, almost all of the time that I encounter another person carrying a firearm, mine is bigger.

    *ducks for the inevitable "compensation" comment*

  3. #3
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Hah, good one (mine is bigger).

    Seriously, though, this explanation covers why people who should know better confront those who OC.

    I think I've gone my whole adult life out and about and NEVER had a guy come up to me and ask me a (probing or rude) question, except for panhandlers and people looking for directions. Why, I was wondering does OC a HG give people the balls to confront a person? It has to be part of some innate drive to be the Alpha male, because it defies all reason.

    And why do LEOs confront OC who are walking their dogs - it HAS to be a dominance issue, because they have got to know they're wasting their time and harassing someone, and they have GOT to know the danger of trying to disarm and unload an unfamiliar HG, but, somewhat inexplicably they do it anyway.

    I wonder if there are not very few examples of female LEO going up and challenging an OC (without a male partner, say).

    Now women do go up and challenge OC as private citizens, but we all know that type - the 'I'm the Mom and you have to do what I say'. So they're also 'alpha' acting out.
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 02-16-2011 at 10:25 AM.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Oops, sorry, forgot to answer the 'reptile brain' comment. One theory of human brain evolution is that we are all modeled after a primitive brain stem which is seen in reptiles, but overlaid with mammalian and human lobes.

    See Wiki:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triune_brain

    It's just a theory, but it tries to explain why we still have primitive instincts. (Humans are thought to not have very many, if any, instinctual behaviors. One of them is the Visual Cliff, where the monkey brain is afraid of going out onto a glass plate over a chasm, or 'instinctively' afraid of snakes, for example).

    HTH

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Oops, sorry, forgot to answer the 'reptile brain' comment. One theory of human brain evolution is that we are all modeled after a primitive brain stem which is seen in reptiles, but overlaid with mammalian and human lobes.

    See Wiki:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triune_brain

    It's just a theory, but it tries to explain why we still have primitive instincts. (Humans are thought to not have very many, if any, instinctual behaviors. One of them is the Visual Cliff, where the monkey brain is afraid of going out onto a glass plate over a chasm, or 'instinctively' afraid of snakes, for example).

    HTH
    Please don't say "its just a theory". Hypothesis can be described as "just a hypothesis" because there has been no experimentation yet. Theories have had much positive experimentation and have been tested in attempts to disprove them. Gravity is "just a theory"

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    Actually the theory of gravity put forth by Newton doesn't hold up to modern experiments. Einstein's theory is better, but has its failings. Currently, physicists are trying to explain the phenomenon using quantum physics.

    Theories are often dismissed as being "just a theory." Equally bad judgment puts them on pedestals. Neither view appreciates theories for what they are: explanations of observable natural phenomena, made to the best of our current abilities, based on available observations, and that have been tested to ensure that they predict outcomes well enough to use them to try to exercise some level of control over our universe.

    Theories are not truth. Neither are they useless.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Actually the theory of gravity put forth by Newton doesn't hold up to modern experiments. Einstein's theory is better, but has its failings. Currently, physicists are trying to explain the phenomenon using quantum physics.

    Theories are often dismissed as being "just a theory." Equally bad judgment puts them on pedestals. Neither view appreciates theories for what they are: explanations of observable natural phenomena, made to the best of our current abilities, based on available observations, and that have been tested to ensure that they predict outcomes well enough to use them to try to exercise some level of control over our universe.

    Theories are not truth. Neither are they useless.
    There is no gravity. The earth sucks!
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    There is no gravity. The earth sucks!
    i agree whole heartedly. i've found in life, and i rationalize this to open carry, people who see you doing something, or enjoying something they dont have or do, seem to exibit the childish behavior of, if your happy i will end it, if you have something i dont, i will destroy it. i think it is not a genuine fear, but a form of jealousy that drives their behavior.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Not to belabor this, but my 'hypothesis' answers a lot of questions.

    It explains why LEOs and Civilians RARELY hassle an OC female. It's not that they don't see her as a dangerous perp, it's that it does not ignite their COMPETITIVE instinct - the 'who would get the girl' urge to dominate all other males in the vicinity.

    It explains why female LEOs rarely get all bent out of shape at male OC-ers. (The ones that do, IMO, are mimicking their male counterparts and might not have that 'subtle anger', AND they do get that "I is ELITE" attitude.

    So we have two strong drives - the male dominance thing and the "I is Elite" urge operating. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LAW. Forgive the all-caps, but I think it need emphasized. If you are wondering why a LEO who knows the law hassles you, I think it should be clear it's because you are a guy, you are treading his dominance turf (elite) and you are stimulating his pecking order urges.

    Thus, in the thread about 'why do you get hassled for OC and I never do', I think you'd find that somehow these other guys are not projecting this aura which triggers either one or both of these urges. Now it's true some LEOs stop you for other reasons, but I think these two urges are always going to be there.

    IMO, every LEO who says 'Oh we got a MWAG call and we had to stop you' is BS-ing. They can size you up from their car. If they see you're walking your dog and they size you up and still get out of the car, then they are wasting their time, and they are hassling you on purpose, and they already know if you are or are NOT a threat to public safety.

    $.02

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    On first read your idea makes sense.
    Let me think about it a couple days.
    The only rebuttal I can come up with right now is that even when the lower brain says one thing, we do have the higher brain parts to override with reason & law.
    (F'r example, most men don't jump every attractive woman they meet, no matter what the lower brain is telling them to do. And I am certainly not powerless in the face of chocolate. I just don't want to resist.)

    When I started carrying, I had men who OCd telling me that I wasn't going to be hassled as much as they were just because I'm female. At the time, I scoffed, but other than one (BIG) incident, that's held true. No negative comments I can remember, a few stares (many from children in stores), & a few positive comments & conversations (usually from men!). Mostly I'm ignored, left alone, just like any other shopper.

    Even though statistically I'm an average-size man (shows ya what statistics know), people still think, "that's a woman, she's weaker, it's normal she wants to protect herself".

    Our culture still says that men "should" use their muscles & fists, & they're weak or whimpy if they don't fight. I don't believe that for a second. Why should McX have to be beaten & bloody while I can shoot the same attacker trying to kill me (& be less beaten & bloody, if he gets to me at all)?
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  11. #11
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    On first read your idea makes sense.
    Let me think about it a couple days.
    The only rebuttal I can come up with right now is that even when the lower brain says one thing, we do have the higher brain parts to override with reason & law.
    (F'r example, most men don't jump every attractive woman they meet, no matter what the lower brain is telling them to do. And I am certainly not powerless in the face of chocolate. I just don't want to resist.)

    When I started carrying, I had men who OCd telling me that I wasn't going to be hassled as much as they were just because I'm female. At the time, I scoffed, but other than one (BIG) incident, that's held true. No negative comments I can remember, a few stares (many from children in stores), & a few positive comments & conversations (usually from men!). Mostly I'm ignored, left alone, just like any other shopper.

    Even though statistically I'm an average-size man (shows ya what statistics know), people still think, "that's a woman, she's weaker, it's normal she wants to protect herself".

    Our culture still says that men "should" use their muscles & fists, & they're weak or whimpy if they don't fight. I don't believe that for a second. Why should McX have to be beaten & bloody while I can shoot the same attacker trying to kill me (& be less beaten & bloody, if he gets to me at all)?
    thanks MKe............i think(?).

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    i agree whole heartedly. i've found in life, and i rationalize this to open carry, people who see you doing something, or enjoying something they dont have or do, seem to exibit the childish behavior of, if your happy i will end it, if you have something i dont, i will destroy it. i think it is not a genuine fear, but a form of jealousy that drives their behavior.
    You do know that my response was meant to be comical... right?
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    You do know that my response was meant to be comical... right?
    10-4 there guy, and i did indeed laugh, it was good to hear an old one ressurected!

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    Regular Member XD40coyote's Avatar
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    One of them is the Visual Cliff, where the monkey brain is afraid of going out onto a glass plate over a chasm
    My mother told me that she took me to a university behavioral test thing for babies when I was 8-9months old, and this was what they were testing- the response of babies of certain age to crawling across plate glass over an open area to get to a toy. Most wouldn't go out into the "void" space, but she says that I spit on the plate glass and slammed my hand into it for each crawling "step" till I got over to that toy. The researchers were all wide eyed and scribbling notes as if they had never seen this before.

    Any ideas what this means? LOL

    ( btw I also have no fear of snakes, however I have this mini phobia about poison ivy)

    As to LEO's who should know better going to harrass an OCer, they are either Philly PD or [insert certain other cities here], or they are bullies. The bully mentality combined with the "I'm the author-atay" is a sure recipe for disastor. 2 years ago I had game officers harrassing me, I wonder why these "men" chose me? More than likley they saw me, as a woman, to be an easy target. Bullies, plain and simple, and making stuff up, similar to kid bullies who decided to pick on the nerdy boy and call him a ***, wether the nerdy boy is gay or not. I showed them no fear at all, but later I had a break down of some sort. I will admit I am not much for authority figures and people in uniforms with badges and guns. I've learned to never trust any authority figures, in fact I don't trust much of anyone unless I get to know you real well and you show you are OK. 10 times bitten, and many many times shy, or something like that. People have tried to use me so many times, it isn't funny.
    Last edited by XD40coyote; 02-17-2011 at 09:35 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    I think I've gone my whole adult life out and about and NEVER had a guy come up to me and ask me a (probing or rude) question, except for panhandlers and people looking for directions. Why, I was wondering does OC a HG give people the balls to confront a person? It has to be part of some innate drive to be the Alpha male, because it defies all reason.
    While your "reptile brain" comments are valid, have you ever thought that some people ask "why are you carrying a firearm" because they're either nervous, curious, or both?

    By the way, in the year I've been OCing, I've been asked half a dozen times, and by about as many women as men.

    And why do LEOs confront OC who are walking their dogs - it HAS to be a dominance issue...
    I see it as a training issue. In areas like Colorado Springs, this doesn't happen. Then again, I know for a fact law enforcement in this town, both PD and Sheriff's deputies, are trained not to make contact on the sole basis of MWAG status. They'll definately give you a good look, though, for any suspicious activity.

    ...they have got to know they're wasting their time and harassing someone, and they have GOT to know the danger of trying to disarm and unload an unfamiliar HG, but, somewhat inexplicably they do it anyway.
    The two times I was stopped while carrying, the officers had me unload my firearm and hand it to them while they conducted the traffic stop. Once the stop was complete, they handed it back and said, "you're free to go." There was never any agressive attitute or macho approach about it.

    Now women do go up and challenge OC as private citizens, but we all know that type - the 'I'm the Mom and you have to do what I say'. So they're also 'alpha' acting out.
    Not any of the three who've approached me.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    As an example, in Missouri, cities and towns have codes that make CCW a criminal offense still on their books. Yet everybody knows that CCW is legal and the state CCW law preempts local codes. But LEOs continue to use these obviously unenforceable codes to stop and harass LACs. It is not the fault of the LEO that the city has these bogus laws still on the books. It is the LEOs fault he uses them to stop and harass LACS on the basis of these bogus laws.
    Sadly, there's no requirement to clean up old legislation if newer legislation overrides it. In fact, doing so would only make it easier for ordinary citizens to represent themselves in a court of law. Keeping the civil code looking like spaghetti and hiding much of the law in case law keeps lawyers employed. Since legislators are mostly lawyers, it's in the best interests of their "guild" to keep it more complicated than ordinary citizens can handle.

    City cops are very familiar with city code, less so with county code (left to sheriff's) or state code (left to state troopers). It's little surprise the local laws against OCing are first and foremost in their head, and the preemptions and exemptions found in state code remain in the background.

    The money quote from one LEO who stopped me while OCing...."I'm pretty sure you can't OC here..."
    Nevertheless, it's important for us who OC to know our rights. Had a LEO here in Colorado Springs made that statement, I'd have countered with something like, "Actually, Sir, I mean no disrespect, but a range of statute and case law indicates otherwise. I'd like to discuss it further, if you're interested."

    That both indicates respect, while letting him know you know what the hell you're talking about, while also giving him an out: "Uh, no thanks. Carry on..."

    There's a slight risk he'll get ticked, and if that happens, go passive and file complaints, if not a lawsuit, later for anything he does incorrectly.

    I got cuffed and stuffed for 30 minutes until he got a call back from his SGT informing him that OC was legal. Not one thing happened to that LEO after I filed a complaint, it was a misunderstanding and training would occur to prevent future incidents, according to his chief.

    ....we will see....
    Sorry to hear about your bad experience while the LEO had a learning experience. I do wish they'd do that on their time, not ours. Sounds like they're at least trying to make things right.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    *ducks for the inevitable "compensation" comment*
    There needs to be a Banana Hammock OC event to lay this crap to rest.

    It's good to be able to end these ridiculous accusations with the drop of a zipper.

    I had a fun moment of clarity when I was accused of Compensating with my 1911... 5 inch long barrel, slightly over 0.5 inches in diameter.... Really lady? You think that's big? Lemme show ya sumthin...

    :-p
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    Regular Member Twiztid Angel's Avatar
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    hi Im new and female....do women have more or less problems OCing?

    I have a Taurus judge...45/410
    Last edited by Twiztid Angel; 03-05-2011 at 06:01 PM.

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    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiztid Angel View Post
    hi Im new and female....do women have more or less problems OCing?

    I have a Taurus judge...45/410
    I don't think a woman carrying a Judge would have many problems she couldn't solve.

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    Regular Member Twiztid Angel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada carrier View Post
    I don't think a woman carrying a Judge would have many problems she couldn't solve.


    LOL thank ya...but I was referring to LEO and snoopy citizens giving problems about OCing in general

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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiztid Angel View Post
    LOL thank ya...but I was referring to LEO and snoopy citizens giving problems about OCing in general
    Welcome TA!

    When you get a minute, stop on by the NC forums (down in the States area) and enter the fray.

    As far as females carrying, I know of no data to support any notion of them getting harassed any more or less than males.

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    Regular Member bmg50cal's Avatar
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    If everyone had a Schwartz, and of equal size, then the world would be a better place.

    Last edited by bmg50cal; 03-08-2011 at 02:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Ironically, as OC advocates, we have to be more docile and more calm and give up the right to be abrasive and confrontational if we want to continue with this practice.
    You'll see this occasionally in police officers. It's de-escalation. Verbal Aikido. When deadly weapons are present it's easier to be the bigger man and walk away because the other person will look like a tool. And obviously, the other person isn't wrapped very tightly if they don't have sense of mind to argue with an obviously armed man.

    We're a few years beyond needing to club each other to death with sticks.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiztid Angel View Post
    hi Im new and female....do women have more or less problems OCing?
    Welcome, new! Er, "Twiztid Angel!"

    From what I gather, females are accosted by LEO much less often for legal OC than are males. Something about cops' "man+gun=trouble" mindset that seems to have been programmed into them during their stint at the academy.

    When I began open carry, I thought I'd have all sorts of conflicts. To date, not really. Just a couple of benign discussions.

    I have a Taurus judge...45/410
    Ok. Pondering the benefits of either charge, I'd have to side with the .45. .410 is geared towards small game i.e. rabbit, grouse, etc. While in close quarters it might not be very pleasant, if you can fire a .45 JHP round from your Judge, I'd do that. Better stopping power. Please practice at the range with that load, and often. Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by since9; 03-10-2011 at 01:00 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Twiztid Angel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Welcome, new! Er, "Twiztid Angel!"

    From what I gather, females are accosted by LEO much less often for legal OC than are males. Something about cops' "man+gun=trouble" mindset that seems to have been programmed into them during their stint at the academy.

    When I began open carry, I thought I'd have all sorts of conflicts. To date, not really. Just a couple of benign discussions.



    Ok. Pondering the benefits of either charge, I'd have to side with the .45. .410 is geared towards small game i.e. rabbit, grouse, etc. While in close quarters it might not be very pleasant, if you can fire a .45 JHP round from your Judge, I'd do that. Better stopping power. Please practice at the range with that load, and often. Just my 2 cents.

    The 410 that I have is specifically designed for the judge made by Winchester it is the PDX1....holds a close pattern in close quarters ..... it has 3 41mm roundish disks instead of birdshot or other similar shot. At 7 foot around 2-3 inch spread and at 15 foot about 3-4 inch spread.

    Here is the vid on how it spreads....its truly an awesome load.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR-A8irzyWo




    Last edited by Twiztid Angel; 03-10-2011 at 01:11 AM.

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