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Thread: My inquiry to Lansing PD on the CADL TRO

  1. #1
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    My inquiry to Lansing PD on the CADL TRO

    I am not a defendant on the restraining order against MOC. So, I have questions that need to be cleared up. I sent the below to:

    tszymanski@lansingmi.gov
    council@ci.lansing.mi.us
    cityatty@ci.lansing.mi.us


    Dear Chief Szymanski,

    I have recently read about a temporary restraining order with regard to certain forms of legal firearms carry in some libraries in your area. The restraining order is against "Defendant [Michigan Open Carry, Inc.] and its members, . . . alone or in concert with others, including any officer, agent, employee and/or representative of Defendant and/or any of its members."

    I am not a member, officer, agent, or representative of the Defendant. I do not act "in concert" with the Defendant. I do lawfully open carry, but it is my own individual choice and practice and not due to any membership in any organization of the Defendant's nor to acting "in concert" with Defendant.

    I wish to know what your department's enforcement policy will be toward open carriers like myself, who are not members of the Defendant nor acting "in concert" with the Defendant, if we open carry in the libraries to which this TRO applies. Clearly this restraining order does not apply to me; however, statements the library management has made in press releases give me cause for concern that they will try to have you enforce this restraining order on people who are not Defendant's named in the restraining order.

    I do travel to Lansing occasionally, and it is possible that I will need to use the libraries in question. Please clarify how you will handle open carriers in the relevant libraries who are not Defendant's named in the restraining order.

    Respectfully,
    (DanM)
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  2. #2
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    If you are also not the defendant and you also have the same questions I do, I encourage you to write.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  3. #3
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Very well played sir.

    If they state "Yes, we will enforce against you", then they are exceeding their authority and the TRO.

    If they state "No, we will not enforce against you", then the TRO really is meaningless but creates 2 separate "classes" of persons who carry firearms (against Equal Protection Under Law).

    Next up, time to hit the MI AG on this one...

  4. #4
    Regular Member MarineSgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Very well played sir.

    If they state "Yes, we will enforce against you", then they are exceeding their authority and the TRO.

    If they state "No, we will not enforce against you", then the TRO really is meaningless but creates 2 separate "classes" of persons who carry firearms (against Equal Protection Under Law).

    Next up, time to hit the MI AG on this one...
    Option 3 - They ignore you.
    Someone who can't be trusted to walk free in public with a firearm shouldn't be walking around free.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    nice!
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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  6. #6
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarineSgt View Post
    Option 3 - They ignore you.
    Option 4 - I keep this email in my computer, no matter whether they respond or not, as evidence of notice, and pull it out if and when it becomes relevant.

    Sometimes, you need to think about, and act for, the potential contingencies beyond what it seems your actions are for. Even if I knew they wouldn't respond, I would've still sent the email.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Option 3 it the most likely. Or they will tell you to consult a lawyer. I have a feeling some good folks in LPD would rather see the courts handle this while being involved as little as possible.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kubel View Post
    I have a feeling some good folks in LPD would rather see the courts handle this while being involved as little as possible.
    Before this, I never ever really remember the LPD being a problem, even early on in April of 08 when we had that picnic with like 10,000 joggers and like a dozen cops coming by. Aside from the odd issue like Venator being questioned at the capitol, it's always seemed like they respect us.

    So that said, I don't find it likely that the LPD is trying to go out of their way to mess with us. In their position, I know I would suggest a lawyer to Dan if I had any concerns about getting fired, slammed in the media or tangled up with a judge.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  9. #9
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I don't find it likely that the LPD is trying to go out of their way to mess with us. In their position, I know I would suggest a lawyer to Dan if I had any concerns about getting fired, slammed in the media or tangled up with a judge.
    In my email to the chief (and other city officials copied in), I'm not asking for a legal opinion which would require a lawyer. I'm asking what the police policy or procedure is for potentially enforcing this TRO, if or when they get a MWAG call from CADL. This is a simple question of whether or not their officers currently have management guidance on this matter. God help the officers if they don't. It could bite them in the butt.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  10. #10
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    In my email to the chief (and other city officials copied in), I'm not asking for a legal opinion which would require a lawyer. I'm asking what the police policy or procedure is for potentially enforcing this TRO, if or when they get a MWAG call from CADL. This is a simple question of whether or not their officers currently have management guidance on this matter. God help the officers if they don't. It could bite them in the butt.
    Kinda wondering if they have a members list, and how often its updated? I know I am.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
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  11. #11
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    Kinda wondering if they have a members list, and how often its updated? I know I am.
    Hmm, very interesting.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  12. #12
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    When did this TRO come into being and how did I miss it?Another illegality!Suit time shortly?
    So if some wacko commits a crime against someone there now,it certainlywill be suit time!
    Goes to show how little they value the safety of the citizens(their employers)! IGNORANT BOOBS! OOPS! That just slipped out! EXCUSE ME!
    Last edited by hamaneggs; 02-18-2011 at 10:36 PM.
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

  13. #13
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    Kinda wondering if they have a members list, and how often its updated? I know I am.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Hmm, very interesting.
    A members list is of no use against people who they do not obtain identification from.

    What, then, is their management guidance, when faced with open carriers who are not giving them ID and whom they otherwise have no PC or RAS to believe are Defendants named in the TRO?

    That is the most interesting question about the LPD officers' guidance from management on how to handle any MWAG call from CADL to enforce this TRO.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  14. #14
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    There is no public way I know of to access an MOC member list and we have not been requested to provide one.

  15. #15
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    There is no public way I know of to access an MOC member list and we have not been requested to provide one.
    If we are asked, I hope we'll attempt to quash the sopeana (sp).
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  16. #16
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    If we are asked, I hope we'll attempt to quash the sopeana (sp).
    Subpoena, kinda sounds like they are trying to grab you "below the poena".

    Ouch!

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