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Thread: Attn:KY, OH, TN, residents. My rights were violated tonight.

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    Attn:KY, OH, TN, residents. My rights were violated tonight.

    I went to Joseph Beth Booksellers in Lexington Ky. (Davis Kidd in TN) with my wife tonight. We have been going there for years and my wife worked there for 3 years as a manager.
    I've gone there countless times open carrying, with no incident, and I've made it a point to look for any "no concealed weapons" signs. So, I went there tonight carrying concealed as I have my CCDW, and after I took my light jacket off I was open carrying. KY is a pre-emptive open carry state, meaning no local government can override the open carry law. The only caveat is that private property owners can specify they don't want concealed carry on their premises, as all you guys are probably aware. They had no sign posted on their front door, which we entered. There we are in the back of the store reading magazines on a couch, when 6 uniformed officers surround me and tell me to stand. An officer takes my side-arm. They ask for my permit, and I say that I am not breaking any laws. I am a Police Studies major at E.K.U. and know for a fact that they have to have a sign posted by law. They escort me out and secure my side-arm in my truck. One officer said, "This is Lexington, you need to keep it concealed". The security at J.B.B. called the police after an anti-gun person told them I was carrying. I asked the officer where the sign was posted, and he said on another door. I know that KRS says the sign should be clearly and visible posted, and they sure do not have that covered. Also, they could have just asked me to leave. I was very cooperative and the officers were for the most part cordial, but they pretty much said, "give up your right to open carry cause of the anti-gun people." Please Boycott JOSEPH BETH BOOKSELLERS; they are anti-gun. Even their security said, "I have a CCDWL and they won't let me carry here either" Come on, these people need to get a clue. I will be calling NRA-ILA tomorrow to see if I have a case to sue.

  2. #2
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Maybe try contacting or writing the manager or corporate first. Many places have made sure their managers/employees are well aware that their store does not ban after incidents.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JT44mag View Post
    I went to Joseph Beth Booksellers in Lexington Ky. (Davis Kidd in TN) with my wife tonight. We have been going there for years and my wife worked there for 3 years as a manager.
    I've gone there countless times open carrying, with no incident, and I've made it a point to look for any "no concealed weapons" signs. So, I went there tonight carrying concealed as I have my CCDW, and after I took my light jacket off I was open carrying. KY is a pre-emptive open carry state, meaning no local government can override the open carry law. The only caveat is that private property owners can specify they don't want concealed carry on their premises, as all you guys are probably aware. They had no sign posted on their front door, which we entered. There we are in the back of the store reading magazines on a couch, when 6 uniformed officers surround me and tell me to stand. An officer takes my side-arm. They ask for my permit, and I say that I am not breaking any laws. I am a Police Studies major at E.K.U. and know for a fact that they have to have a sign posted by law. They escort me out and secure my side-arm in my truck. One officer said, "This is Lexington, you need to keep it concealed". The security at J.B.B. called the police after an anti-gun person told them I was carrying. I asked the officer where the sign was posted, and he said on another door. I know that KRS says the sign should be clearly and visible posted, and they sure do not have that covered. Also, they could have just asked me to leave. I was very cooperative and the officers were for the most part cordial, but they pretty much said, "give up your right to open carry cause of the anti-gun people." Please Boycott JOSEPH BETH BOOKSELLERS; they are anti-gun. Even their security said, "I have a CCDWL and they won't let me carry here either" Come on, these people need to get a clue. I will be calling NRA-ILA tomorrow to see if I have a case to sue.
    File a lawsuit in Federal court under violation of 42USC1983.
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42...3----000-.html
    Clear cut violation of your 2nd amendment.

    Did they open you truck door without your permission?
    Did they search you for other weapons after taking your firearm?
    Did they run the serial numbers on your firearm?
    Any you answer yes to are 4th amendment violations.

    Those signs carry no weight of law, you have to be asked to leave first, not forced and most certainly not disarmed when you weren't committing a crime.

    You have a witness, get 'em!
    Last edited by UnfetteredMight; 02-18-2011 at 10:23 PM.

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    We are not banned from the store. I went back in to get my wife after the police had me secure my firearm in my truck. The point of this post is to inform fellow open carry folks that this store doesn't want us to have 2nd amendment rights. I encourage everyone to boycott the chain and tell others to do so also.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I would suggest still following up on this you might end up pleasantly surprised that the manager or corporation might welcome you back with your guns.

    I did this with Wal-mart had a wholehearted apology from the manager, who was very disappointed his employees had asked me to leave. I get nothing but smiles and great service now.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    I don't know how the laws in KY differ from those in AL, but in AL, the police cannot trespass you.

    During my LEO encounter at Target a few months back, the police tried to tell me that they were going to trespass me from Target. I told the officers that they did not have that authority. When their supervisor came out, she tried to tell me that I was being trespassed. Again, I informed her that she could not do that, that only the owner or his agent had the authority to trespass me. The officers could only document the trespass. She did not believe me. I referred her to the code. She couldn't find the appropriate section in her copy of the code. I told her that I could find it in a few seconds. She wouldn't let me.

    However, she caved and called the manager over. The manager called corporate, and corporate told him, in no uncertain terms, that he could not trespass me.

    I said all that to say this: Unless KY law allows the police to tell you to get out, you can (and should) demand that the manager come over and tell you to get out. He likely won't have the guts to do so on his own authority and will call corporate.

    Only a finite number of things can happen:

    1. The manager calls corporate, and corporate says to kick you out. Now you can rightly say that the chain is anti-carry.

    2. The manager calls corporate, and corporate instructs him to welcome you. Tell the cops good night.

    3. The manager does not call, still kicks you out, and does so against corporate policy. You'd have to call corporate to find out that he was wrong. The manager gets into trouble for kicking you out, and you come back and carry.

    4. The manager does not call, still kicks you out, and that is in accord with corporate policy. See #1, but the manager may yet get into trouble for not checking.

    5. The manager does not call, and allows you to stay. Wish the officers a good night, and don't press the issue further with corporate.

    The action that provides the least chance of a positive outcome is to let the officers tell you to leave. That lets corporate and the manager off the hook. I think that, in order to hold them accountable, we must leave the manager and corporate on the hook. Make one of them choose to kick you out.

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    Thanks for the advice, I'm going to look into those options you referred to. I will not stop carrying open simply to avoid hassle.

    My only concern is that pursuing a case may cause me to have trouble getting hired in law enforcement in the surrounding area. I'll have to weigh the pros and cons before proceeding.

  8. #8
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Washington is the same LEO cannot trespass you they can only enforce a trespass.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JT44mag View Post
    Thanks for the advice, I'm going to look into those options you referred to. I will not stop carrying open simply to avoid hassle.

    My only concern is that pursuing a case may cause me to have trouble getting hired in law enforcement in the surrounding area. I'll have to weigh the pros and cons before proceeding.
    Well yeah that would probably hurt you if you sued LE in the area you were trying to get a job.

    Maybe our cause would be better served by you being on the PD and keeping an eye out for fellow officers exhibiting this sort of behavior and putting a stop to it. I thought about joining LE once, but decided I would end up blacklisted because I wouldn't stand for unscrupulous and certainly not illegal behavior from fellow LEOs.

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    So were you arrested as well?

    Im fairly new to the state and I do not know the laws, but is an officer allowed to disarm someone during a contact?

    I know in Texas a CHL holder can be disarmed while in contact with an officer.

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    Regular Member protect our rights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Respectfully, it was 4th amendment rights that were violated, not 2nd amendment.

    Here is a Federal court case very similar to the OP's situation:
    http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?act...downfile&id=52
    Isn't that what he stated? 4th amendment rights? did you mean to say 2nd?
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good" - George Washington

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    Regular Member protect our rights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    No. I meant to say 4th amendment. Unlawful seizure of the gun, the person, and possibly depending on state law the identification document.
    Ah I got you, I was getting confused cause he does state later in the post that they are 4th amendment violations. Sorry.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good" - George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Respectfully, it was 4th amendment rights that were violated, not 2nd amendment.

    Here is a Federal court case very similar to the OP's situation:
    http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?act...downfile&id=52
    Your fine LT, I know no disrespect is intended.

    So disarming an individual against their will, without RAS of a crime of course, isn't a violation of their second amendment rights?

    Edit

    I just read the case and the only reason it wasn't considered a violation of his second was because he didn't file the case as such. The court isn't going to bring it up because it would have meant more "damages" being awarded to the plaintiff. Again and again they point out that he was lawfully carrying and the Terry stop was illegal. The only reason they could have disarmed him is if they had justification for a Terry.

    The best part was where the officers thought that qualified immunity applied to them in this case, when it clearly did not. Lol, I knew that before I even read the judgement from the court.

    I also agree that the battery and false arrest charges were false.

    He should have went for 4th and 2nd amendment violations in his case.

    There is also this

    KRS 237.104 Rights to acquire, carry, and use deadly weapons not to be impaired during disaster or emergency -- Seizure of deadly weapons during disaster or emergency prohibited -- Application of section.
    (1) No person, unit of government, or governmental organization shall, during a period of disaster or emergency as specified in KRS Chapter 39A or at any other time, have the right to revoke, suspend, limit the use of, or otherwise impair the validity of the right of any person to purchase, transfer, loan, own, possess, carry, or use a firearm, firearm part, ammunition, ammunition component, or any deadly weapon or dangerous instrument.
    (2) No person, unit of government, or governmental organization shall, during a period of disaster or emergency as specified in KRS Chapter 39A or at any other time, take, seize, confiscate, or impound a firearm, firearm part, ammunition, ammunition component, or any deadly weapon or dangerous instrument from any person.
    (3) The provisions of this section shall not apply to the taking of an item specified in subsection (1) or (2) of this section from a person who is:
    (a) Forbidden to possess a firearm pursuant to KRS 527.040;
    (b) Forbidden to possess a firearm pursuant to federal law;
    (c) Violating KRS 527.020;
    (d) In possession of a stolen firearm;
    (e) Using a firearm in the commission of a separate criminal offense**; or
    (f) Using a firearm or other weapon in the commission of an offense under KRS Chapter 150.
    Effective: July 12, 2006
    History: Created 2006 Ky. Acts ch. 240, sec. 7, effective July 12, 2006.

    The important part is "at any other time". Now many would read that as, "well they only mean during a disaster" because of the heading of the chapter. But they would have said "any other type" if their intention was to say a disaster not defined in 39A. The intention was to say that you couldn't be disarmed in an emergency situation outside of a disaster either.

    An officer cannot legally disarm you in Kentucky unless they have RAS that you have, or are about to commit a crime, or you are in a place where you cannot legally possess the firearm.

    Kinda like our own 42USC1983, but just for guns.

    I've only been disarmed once by a LEO and I was a rookie then when it came to law, or he wouldn't have gotten away with it. The other three times they didn't even try.
    Last edited by UnfetteredMight; 02-19-2011 at 11:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Not yet, because the Supreme Court has only applied to the 2nd Amendment to the states limited to possession of firearms in the home for self protection. The Supreme Court has not yet applied the 2nd Amendment to the individual's right to carry a firearm in public.
    Interesting point. But he should have brought suit on it as well. If the affirmation was an issue, they would have dismissed the charge, just like the battery and false arrest. You can bring charges in a suit without there being a bona fide ruling from the SCOTUS beforehand. Something's not right there.
    Last edited by UnfetteredMight; 02-19-2011 at 11:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    These LEO decided to use their police powers to enforce a store policy and ignore the law. They need to be held accountable. The store owners can prohibit any type of carry on their property, but they must ask you to leave before it becomes a police matter. We don't even know if the "no guns" policy is actually the store owners' or just the store managers' or just the security guard's. To make things, worse, after you left the store, and were on public property, the police then made you put the gun in your truck. What authority did they to do that? None. Did they ever touch you? grab your arm or elbow? steer you toward the door? Put there hands in your pockets? Take your wallet out of your pocket? Did they demand ID. This was almost exact what happened with Matthew St. John in Alamogordo, NM. You can read about it here:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-carry-lawsuit

    and here:

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...-carrying-guns

    And here:

    http://www.nmcourt.fed.us/Drs-Web/vi...-08cv00994.pdf

    In that case the LEO were stripped of their qualified immunity by a federal judge and when it appeared the judgement would go against them, the city offered a settlement. I suggest you follow his example. This has got to stop.
    Unfortunately, as much as I agree with you, he is not going to do it if he is looking to get a job with the same PD he would be filing suit against.
    Last edited by UnfetteredMight; 02-19-2011 at 11:59 PM.

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    I'm not local to the Lexington area but I am kind of familiar with the whole Joseph Beth issue, it's arisen many, many times in the past. they are among the worse offenders of the liberal anti-2A businesses in lexington from all I've gathered over the years. As for boycotting the store, I've been actively boycotting JB as well as other known anti-2A businesses and products from anti-2A companies such as California Pizza Kitchen's products that are now being sold in Wal-Mart's and many other stores in Kentucky.
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    Some of us in Alabama had an incident where a uniformed Law Enforcement Officer acted on the behalf of the manager of the property (apartment building). The manager was staunchly anti-gun, but wouldn't come out herself and ask us to leave, even in the presence of the LEO mentioned below. So she called the "resource officer", an off-duty county LEO, who came over in uniform and represented himself as a LEO and conducted a detainment and ran our IDs over his police radio. He asked us to leave, and we did, because we were stuffed (done eating) and getting sunburnt.

    Properly? He should have identified himself either as a LEO or a representative of the property owner, and called another officer to come over for the detainment. The State does not permit the use of office for private use; thinking about this a bit, I think he violated his access to NCIC as well.
    Last edited by Kirbinator; 02-20-2011 at 04:17 PM.
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    Interesting story . If you would like to share more details about how the officers took posession of your sidearm and escorted you out I think alot of people on here would like to hear them. If you are truely thinking of filing a case against them you may not want to post a lot of details about it on the internet though. One small mistake in your story could be used against you.

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    krs 237.104
    (2) No person, unit of government, or governmental organization shall, during a period of disaster or emergency as specified in KRS Chapter 39A OR AT ANY OTHER TIME, take, seize, confiscate, or impound a firearm, firearm part, ammunition, ammunition component, or any deadly weapon or dangerous instrument from any person.

    unless you are unable to possess a firearm due to federal or state law, or you have committed a criminal offense, or the leo believes you have committed a criminal offense, or your firearm was stolen, under KY law, they have no right to disarm you. Carrying a firearm in KY does not constitute a crime, and it is a right protected by our state constitution.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    "This is Lexington..." isn't that part of Kentucky still? Of is it a private fiefdom where the cops choose what laws they obey. Or is it part of maryland, now? Just asking...

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    Regular Member RussP's Avatar
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    A friend of mine with Lexington PD provided some information about why the customer in P.P.B. that night brought JT44mag to store management's attention.

    Back on March 5, 2009, there was a murder in the parking lot directly in front of that P.P.B. which received a whole lot of media attention.

    http://www.heraldleaderphoto.com/200...t-apprehended/

    The shooter's trial ended the night before JT44mag visited the bookstore. Again, there was significant media coverage of the trial and verdict which refreshed peoples memories of where it took place.

    http://www.kentucky.com/2011/02/15/1...ylink=misearch

    http://www.kentucky.com/2011/02/16/1...ylink=misearch

    http://www.kentucky.com/2011/02/17/1...ylink=misearch

    Perhaps JT44mag could revisit the store and talk with the manager on duty the night of his incident and talk about why, after all the other times he'd opened carried there, they chose to call the cops that night.
    Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RussP View Post
    A friend of mine with Lexington PD provided some information about why the customer in P.P.B. that night brought JT44mag to store management's attention.

    Back on March 5, 2009, there was a murder in the parking lot directly in front of that P.P.B. which received a whole lot of media attention.

    http://www.heraldleaderphoto.com/200...t-apprehended/

    The shooter's trial ended the night before JT44mag visited the bookstore. Again, there was significant media coverage of the trial and verdict which refreshed peoples memories of where it took place.

    http://www.kentucky.com/2011/02/15/1...ylink=misearch

    http://www.kentucky.com/2011/02/16/1...ylink=misearch

    http://www.kentucky.com/2011/02/17/1...ylink=misearch

    Perhaps JT44mag could revisit the store and talk with the manager on duty the night of his incident and talk about why, after all the other times he'd opened carried there, they chose to call the cops that night.
    So this is a reason to treat someone unlawfully when you are supposed to be upholding the law>>>??? There are murders all the time with firearms, does that mean every leo should have the right to stop me for suspicion of being a murderer, simply because I am exercising a constitutional right granted to me by the U.S.A and Kentucky??? You said the trial ENDED the day before he was illegally detained, so therefore he couldnt have been the one who committed this murder, therefore that is not a basis to stop anyone. Even if the murderer hadnt been apprehended yet, they still have no right to detain someone for simply openly carrying a firearm.

  23. #23
    Regular Member RussP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RussP View Post
    A friend of mine with Lexington PD provided some information about why the customer in P.P.B. that night brought JT44mag to store management's attention....

    The shooter's trial ended the night before JT44mag visited the bookstore. Again, there was significant media coverage of the trial and verdict which refreshed peoples memories of where it took place.
    ...

    Perhaps JT44mag could revisit the store and talk with the manager on duty the night of his incident and talk about why, after all the other times he'd opened carried there, they chose to call the cops that night.
    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    So this is a reason to treat someone unlawfully when you are supposed to be upholding the law>>>??? There are murders all the time with firearms, does that mean every leo should have the right to stop me for suspicion of being a murderer, simply because I am exercising a constitutional right granted to me by the U.S.A and Kentucky??? You said the trial ENDED the day before he was illegally detained, so therefore he couldnt have been the one who committed this murder, therefore that is not a basis to stop anyone. Even if the murderer hadnt been apprehended yet, they still have no right to detain someone for simply openly carrying a firearm.
    KYGlockster, my post was about why the customer might have been motivated to tell PPB management about a man with a gun. That was the root of the problem, wasn't it, a customer complained?

    Wouldn't you like to hear why the call was made?
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  24. #24
    Regular Member RussP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    The cops are supposed to enforce the law not violate a persons rights just because some twit is whining about a murder that happend a long time ago and was committed by some other person.
    The fact remain that JT44mag was not doing anything that was any business of government busy bodies. The police should not be enforcing store policy, especially a policy that may not even exist.
    Perhaps JT44mag should bring JJB management and the police together to discuss that. sudden valley gunner suggested something similar earlier in the thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Maybe try contacting or writing the manager or corporate first. Many places have made sure their managers/employees are well aware that their store does not ban after incidents.
    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I would suggest still following up on this you might end up pleasantly surprised that the manager or corporation might welcome you back with your guns.

    I did this with Wal-mart had a wholehearted apology from the manager, who was very disappointed his employees had asked me to leave. I get nothing but smiles and great service now.
    Doing so might improve relations all around.
    Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

  25. #25
    Regular Member RussP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Maybe a group hug would make everyone feel better and that would solve everything.
    Why do you believe sitting down with the store management and/or Lexington PD to discuss details of the incident would not be beneficial? Or do I not understand your post.
    Last edited by RussP; 02-23-2011 at 11:31 AM.
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