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Thread: Open Carry retention concerns over a rare event overused or abused?

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    Regular Member DinFreemont's Avatar
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    Open Carry retention concerns over a rare event overused or abused?

    Well, due to a thread hijack I wanted to open this thread.

    Retention is a VERY important issue, but are concerns over civilian legal open carry overblown or abused as a tool used against the open carry in a political manor?

    So far we seem to only have one instance where a criminal “got the drop” on an OC’er and stole his weapon, with several attempts unsuccessful.

    I am unsure if we can categorize the armed robbery in the same way as an unarmed “grab” from the holster event.

    So far I have yet to see any successful “grab and go or grab and use” attempt, are there any points any of you can give us to events?
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DinFreemont View Post
    Retention is a VERY important issue, but are concerns over civilian legal open carry overblown or abused as a tool used against the open carry in a political manor?
    Both.

    I am unsure if we can categorize the armed robbery in the same way as an unarmed “grab” from the holster event.
    Totally different motive. Armed robbery is interested in a wallet full of money, credit cards, perhaps access to one's car. If they were interested in murder, they wouldn't hold you up; they'd simply kill you and take the plunder. An unarmed grab is usually motivated by a warped psyche.

    Is retention important? Absolutely. In fact, if you think your OC'd firearm is going to keep itself in your holster against a determined gun-grabber, even with a level 3 retention holster, think again.

    Here are three steps to get you started:

    1. Keep your eyes peeled, including your six (behind you), at all times. If someone's eyeing you funny, make and keep eye contact, but put some distance between you. If they start following, contact the store manager, law enforcement, or simply leave the area.

    2. The moment you detect a grab, push down on your firearm into it's holster with all the force you have. Use BOTH hands. For the average 150-lb person, that'll be 200 lbs the grabber will have to overcome.

    3. Twist towards the grabber, towards the same side as your firearm. If the gun is to your right, twist right. Instinct says twist away, but then you're pulling against their pull, and they can pull a lot harder than they can push. Twisting into your firearm also imparts some serious leg-driven torque against which they'll be extremely hard-pressed to counter with their arms. Towards the end of your twist, step back with the same foot as your gun (gun right, then right foot back), and if necessary stiff-arm block the grabber with your left hand, sort of a hard, open-handed punch/shove, with your right hand still pressing your firearm as firmly in your holster as possible.

    At this point, with a lot of practice and some luck, you're back to a non gun-grab, close-quarters hostile situation.

    If you're serious about learning more, or about how your local law enforcement does it, or what additional measures they incorporate (blocking, grappling), please contact them.

    So far I have yet to see any successful “grab and go or grab and use” attempt, are there any points any of you can give us to events?
    Aside from the above 3 points, nope.
    Last edited by since9; 02-21-2011 at 01:22 AM.
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    Just to add to what Since9 has said, training with an additional deterrent/weapon is advisable. Most people carry pocket knives in their day-to-day lives, it wouldn't be a bad thing to learn how to properly use them against a BG if necessary. Another deterrent is pepper spray, but that could do as much harm as it does good when used in a CQC scenario like a gun grab.

    If all else fails, fight like your life depends on it. Because if you're like me and carry with a round chambered, it more than likely will.

    As for it being a likely scenario, I certainly don't think so, but the possibility is there and the threat is real. Think about how many times you've actually used your firearm in a self-defense scenario; a gun grab is even less likely than that and most will never have to defend themselves (thankfully).

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    Once upon a time I was attacked and the thugs got the drop on me. (Failed gay-bashing. Turned into a funny story actually.) I was only armed with a knife which they got hold of when they flipped me from behind. (VERY stupidly wasn't watching my 6 when they jumped me.) When it was apparent that I wasn't backing down from the three of them even with them having my knife and had inflicted some good damage on one, they flocked off. I always think it could have been very different if it was a gun that had fallen off my belt.

    The other thing I worry about is having to worry about it falling out just in the due course of my day. I was at the Grizzly Rose last night (gave up my boycott of them for renting to Tancredo for a fundraiser) and had that in mind while dancing and CCing. Riding the mechanical bull was right out, but I had to consider the effect jumps, stomps, and spins would have on my holstered weapon.

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    Regular Member DinFreemont's Avatar
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    I would contend that simply having a gun is a deterrent to crime, in particular crime that centers on finding a “soft target” for parasites.

    Two instances have made me come to that conclusion, the first was an attempt at a robbery in a car v. another car. Riding along a road late afternoon a car full of thugs in what I will guess is some sort of gang garb drives up and starts to pass, then starts to get close to the front and moves in while the occupants start yelling racial slurs and waving knives and a bat.

    Showing a long-gun from the back seat had the carload of thugs wide eyed and speeding off into the distance.

    The second event was dealing with an obviously “high" trashy thug also thinking a good fight was the plan of the day, he quickly changed his mind.

    No threats, just simply making the jerks understand the target was no longer “soft” was enough to end the possible altercation.

    An armed society is a polite society is an accurate observation, and would we not all love a more polite society?
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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    "Retention" is far inferior to situational awareness. I carry both 1911s in kydex holsters with only friction retention. But I learned SA flying Phantoms a long time ago and it has stuck with me. In a bad situation, the 'retention' will be my right hand on the grip of my .45.

    check 6.

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    Regular Member Red Dawg's Avatar
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    my .02

    Retention from a bad guy is statistically one of the least worries. My worry, from my experience, are your buddies being smart *$#s. I have broken a good friend's finger because he thought it would be funny to slide from a "buddy hug" to grab my gun. It broke one finger and took bark from another when I slammed my palm on top of his fingers at the top of the hammer.
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    The other thing I worry about is having to worry about it falling out just in the due course of my day. I was at the Grizzly Rose last night (gave up my boycott of them for renting to Tancredo for a fundraiser) and had that in mind while dancing and CCing. Riding the mechanical bull was right out, but I had to consider the effect jumps, stomps, and spins would have on my holstered weapon.
    Oh, gee. You're bringing up my most embarrassing OC moment, when my firearm lay in the seat of my car throughout breakfast while I talked about the importance of OC.

    Crap snap the crap snap of my holster at the time... these days, I often tap the butt of the grip to ensure it's still with me.

    I was so incredibly chagrined when I returned to my vehicle to find my firearm laying there in the front seat where the seat belt had unsnapped it and laid it to rest.

    No More! Never Again!

    Grrr, personal dissatisfaction, humiliation, etc... Hey, at least I'm honest.
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    Regular Member Anubis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DinFreemont View Post
    I am unsure if we can categorize the armed robbery in the same way as an unarmed “grab” from the holster event.
    Unfortunately, one can't know whether it's "only" armed robbery or actually murder until after the fact. If someone threatens me with a weapon, whatever he says his goal is does not matter: I must assume he is going to kill me. To assume otherwise is a poor assumption, in my opinion, and the complete antithesis of situational awareness. To counter that lethal threat is a principal reason I choose to carry.

    A grab for your pistol, whether OC or CC, is an immediate preliminary to armed robbery or murder, so it instantly becomes a life-or-death struggle too.

    Whether or not OC is asking for a gun-grab, as many anti-OCers maintain, is just one part of the eternal OC v. CC debate. Like the pro-2A v. anti-2A debate, both sides can argue, what-if, and quote cases ad nauseam. It comes down to opinion, not indisputable fact.

    I support CC, OC, and no-C. If you want to CC or OC legally, go for it. Likewise if you want to stick your head in the sand and bet your life on 911 or "it'll never happen", that's fine with me too.
    Last edited by Anubis; 03-08-2011 at 01:23 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    A grab for your pistol, whether OC or CC, is an immediate preliminary to armed robbery or murder, so it instantly becomes a life-or-death struggle too.
    No, it's simply a felony grab for a firearm.

    Whether or not OC is asking for a gun-grab, as many anti-OCers maintain, is just one part of the eternal OC v. CC debate. Like the pro-2A v. anti-2A debate, both sides can argue, what-if, and quote cases ad nauseam. It comes down to opinion, not indisputable fact.

    I support CC, OC, and no-C. If you want to CC or OC legally, go for it. Likewise if you want to stick your head in the sand and bet your life on 911 or "it'll never happen", that's fine with me too.
    I'm smiling.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Reality

    Open Carry is NOT cause for ANY police department to fly off their handles and do something unmentionable!!!!

    Open carry is LEGAL in most (44+) states, and if LEO encounters law-abiding citizens engaged in open carry, consider yourselves fortunate in that you're got a law-abiding citizen who's got your back.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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