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Thread: American Legion in Bath, MI Bans Firearms

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    American Legion in Bath, MI Bans Firearms

    This chapter of the great patriotic Veterans' association has taken upon itself to ban Firearms in their building. Venator, a member, is NOT happy at all.

    http://www.bathlegion412.org/
    info@bathlegion412.org
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    It's private property, besides we have bigger issues we need to concentrate on at the moment.

    You do remember the whole CADL thing don't you?

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    It's private property, besides we have bigger issues we need to concentrate on at the moment.

    You do remember the whole CADL thing don't you?
    Yep. You seem to think I was suggesting we do something about it?

    You must not know how I feel about private property rights.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Sounds pretty hypocritical to me, for such an organization to ban firearms in particular.

  5. #5
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    There's another thread on this in General Discussion.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    It's private property, besides we have bigger issues we need to concentrate on at the moment.

    You do remember the whole CADL thing don't you?
    isn't the library private property?
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    isn't the library private property?
    No.

  8. #8
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    I would never have guessed as a 17 year SAL member of the Bath American Legion post 412 that I would be ashamed to be a member. Last month a friend OCed into their post as my guest. Within a week a no firearms sign was posted. Apparently the Post held a meeting where one of the board members (A retired Lansing LEO btw) proposed banning firearms. There was only one nay vote (At least that officer took his oath seriously) and the motion passed.

    I could understand if this was a Moose lodge or the Masons, but a patriotic/veterans fraternal organization, the thought makes me sick to my stomach. Every one of these post officers took an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States, yet the first chance they get to stand up for it they blink and infringe upon it.

    Their reason is not that the person carrying the gun is unsafe, but that someone may jump them and take their gun. Yes really, that was what their fear is. Retention holster anyone?

    I can not support such a post and no person that understands what is as stake can. I will not be renewing my membership and will never step foot in that post until the policy changes.
    Last edited by Venator; 02-22-2011 at 08:39 AM.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I would never have guessed as a 17 year SAL member of the Bath American Legion post 412 that I would be ashamed to be a member. Last month a friend OCed into their post as my guest. Within a week a no firearms sign was posted. Apparently the Post held a meeting where one of the board members (A retired Lansing LEO btw) proposed banning firearms. There was only one nay vote (At least that officer took his oath seriously) and the motion passed.

    I could understand if this was a Moose lodge or the Masons, but a patriotic/veterans fraternal organization, the thought makes me sick to my stomach. Every one of these post officers took an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States, yet the first chance they get to stand up for it they blink and infringe upon it.

    Their reason is not that the person carrying the gun is unsafe, but that someone may jump them and take their gun. Yes really, that was what their fear is. Retention holster anyone?

    I can not support such a post and no person that understands what is as stake can. I will not be renewing my membership and will never step foot in that post until the policy changes.
    Sorry to hear that Ven. I would have thought they would have notified membership prior to a vote of this kind. It seems their vote is based upon FEAR, sure glad out Veterans overcame that in the past. Given your history there, you may consider writing the State/National Organization to see if some "clarification" can be found.

    I went and did some reading about this group when it came up. While one of their four pillars discusses Upholding and Protection the US Constitution, nowhere in that PDF document does it specifically call out Firearm Rights or efforts in this area (not even sponsoring shooting events). I even did a search of the website and found nothing on this as well. It may be that they consider this area covered by other groups.

    In any case, I wish you luck my friend in dealing with this situation.

  10. #10
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Sorry to hear that Ven. I would have thought they would have notified membership prior to a vote of this kind. It seems their vote is based upon FEAR, sure glad out Veterans overcame that in the past. Given your history there, you may consider writing the State/National Organization to see if some "clarification" can be found.

    I went and did some reading about this group when it came up. While one of their four pillars discusses Upholding and Protection the US Constitution, nowhere in that PDF document does it specifically call out Firearm Rights or efforts in this area (not even sponsoring shooting events). I even did a search of the website and found nothing on this as well. It may be that they consider this area covered by other groups.

    In any case, I wish you luck my friend in dealing with this situation.
    Here is their preamble, notice the first one:

    The American Legion


    Preamble to the Constitution


    FOR GOD AND COUNTRY WE ASSOCIATE OURSELVES TOGETHER
    FOR THE FOLLOWING PURPOSES:



    To uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America;
    To maintain law and order;

    To foster and perpetuate a one hundred percent Americanism;

    To preserve the memories and incidents of our associations in the Great Wars;

    To inculcate a sense of individual obligation to the community, state and nation;

    To combat the autocracy of both the classes and the masses;

    To make right the master of might;

    To promote peace and goodwill on earth;

    To safeguard and transmit to posterity the principles of justice, freedom and democracy;

    To consecrate and sanctify our comradeship by our devotion to mutual helpfulness.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post

    I can not support such a post and no person that understands what is as stake can. I will not be renewing my membership and will never step foot in that post until the policy changes.
    Good man sir. Im sure I don't have to suggest that you point out to them why you are using your backbone, by reminding them of their oaths.

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    You know what i will do it ...

    Venator
    I contacted the legion headquarters for the legion & they said that it is up to the individual posts & that they do not have any reg's that define ya or na to firearms on the post property. And that it is up to each post to make those rules.
    He said that he would go to the next meeting & request that they notify the membership of the change on the door., and schedule a meeting of the membership to decuss that change......

    He said don't quit, become part of the soluition. he said become an officer or vote pro-gun officers in..
    Ps he is located in Indiana and carries himself.
    Last edited by mastiff69; 02-22-2011 at 12:51 PM.

  13. #13
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I would never have guessed as a 17 year SAL member of the Bath American Legion post 412 that I would be ashamed to be a member. Last month a friend OCed into their post as my guest. Within a week a no firearms sign was posted. Apparently the Post held a meeting where one of the board members (A retired Lansing LEO btw) proposed banning firearms. There was only one nay vote (At least that officer took his oath seriously) and the motion passed.

    I could understand if this was a Moose lodge or the Masons, but a patriotic/veterans fraternal organization, the thought makes me sick to my stomach. Every one of these post officers took an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States, yet the first chance they get to stand up for it they blink and infringe upon it.

    Their reason is not that the person carrying the gun is unsafe, but that someone may jump them and take their gun. Yes really, that was what their fear is. Retention holster anyone?

    I can not support such a post and no person that understands what is as stake can. I will not be renewing my membership and will never step foot in that post until the policy changes.
    First, I acknowledge that they have the right to prohibit firearms. Not that I would think it acceptable, but if their concern is that someone may take the person's firearm, then why do they make it a blanket firearm prohibition? Another question, is the former LEO also to adhere to the rule OR is he an 'exception'? I think we know the answers to these questions...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  14. #14
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    First, I acknowledge that they have the right to prohibit firearms. Not that I would think it acceptable, but if their concern is that someone may take the person's firearm, then why do they make it a blanket firearm prohibition? Another question, is the former LEO also to adhere to the rule OR is he an 'exception'? I think we know the answers to these questions...
    They have the right to ban saying the pledge of allegiance, they can ban wearing red. white and blue shirts, they can submit you to a search and seizure of you and your property when you come in the door, they can ban and do most anything.

    That's not the issue, the issue is should they do these things based on the beliefs of the organization.

    Hypocrites.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  15. #15
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    They have the right to ban saying the pledge of allegiance, they can ban wearing red. white and blue shirts, they can submit you to a search and seizure of you and your property when you come in the door, they can ban and do most anything.

    That's not the issue, the issue is should they do these things based on the beliefs of the organization.

    Hypocrites.
    Of course it's not the issue...I'm just really interested if the former LEO excused himself from the rule... you know, one of the 'only ones' allowed to carry...
    Last edited by DrTodd; 02-22-2011 at 02:23 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Of course notI'm just really interested if the former LEO excused himself from the rule... you know, one of the 'only ones' allowed to carry...
    The same thought occurred to me earlier. We must maintain the Status Quo for the privileged class...
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    QUOTE=DrTodd;1473426]Of course it's not the issue...I'm just really interested if the former LEO excused himself from the rule... you know, one of the 'only ones' allowed to carry...[/QUOTE]

    But he has super-advanced-tactical-swat-ranger-s.e.a.l.-delta-force-death-dealing training.

    Go get 'em V.

    Bronson
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  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Of course it's not the issue...I'm just really interested if the former LEO excused himself from the rule... you know, one of the 'only ones' allowed to carry...
    I know. I don't know if he carries while in the Legion, he does drink a bit so I hope not. Since I'm unlikely to see him again I can't ask him.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  19. #19
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Is the decision set in stone or is it one that may be revisited in the future?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  20. #20
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Is the decision set in stone or is it one that may be revisited in the future?
    The board voted on it and they told me it couldn't be changed unless the person that made the motion wanted it to be....Yes they said that. Seems to me that any board member can make a motion to repeal it and they can vote again.

    I would think that it will be in effect until a new board is voted in and a motion is made to rescind it. I can only hope. That is why any pressure that people put on them could influence that decision.

    I have not heard anything from National and don't expect I will. Most likely National will leave it up to each post.

    It's just really sad and pitiful
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    The board voted on it and they told me it couldn't be changed unless the person that made the motion wanted it to be....Yes they said that. Seems to me that any board member can make a motion to repeal it and they can vote again.

    I would think that it will be in effect until a new board is voted in and a motion is made to rescind it. I can only hope. That is why any pressure that people put on them could influence that decision.

    I have not heard anything from National and don't expect I will. Most likely National will leave it up to each post.

    It's just really sad and pitiful
    Hey Venator, see if you can latch onto a copy of the by-laws and make sure they followed procedure.springerdave.

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by springerdave View Post
    Hey Venator, see if you can latch onto a copy of the by-laws and make sure they followed procedure.springerdave.
    +1...I was thinking the same thing. I would also see if there is an alternative way than what you stated to get this thing overturned.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  23. #23
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    The board voted on it and they told me it couldn't be changed unless the person that made the motion wanted it to be....Yes they said that. Seems to me that any board member can make a motion to repeal it and they can vote again.

    I would think that it will be in effect until a new board is voted in and a motion is made to rescind it. I can only hope. That is why any pressure that people put on them could influence that decision.

    I have not heard anything from National and don't expect I will. Most likely National will leave it up to each post.

    It's just really sad and pitiful
    Are the utilizing Robert's Rules of Order? If so, a Motion to Reconsider could have been done by anyone who voted on the prevailing side in the original vote. They can bring another motion next meeting to rescind that other action, unless there was a moratorium of some sort established.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconsi...on_of_a_motion

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Are the utilizing Robert's Rules of Order? If so, a Motion to Reconsider could have been done by anyone who voted on the prevailing side in the original vote. They can bring another motion next meeting to rescind that other action, unless there was a moratorium of some sort established.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconsi...on_of_a_motion
    Definitely worth a try, but I would be somewhat surprised if the board actually had anyone on it that knew the procedure... but you never know, maybe they do.

    Most organizations use a "modified" Robert's Rules of Order (RONR). I was trained in RONR years ago and if I try to use it in any deliberation, I get some pretty hostile responses... but it could be just me
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Are the utilizing Robert's Rules of Order? If so, a Motion to Reconsider could have been done by anyone who voted on the prevailing side in the original vote. They can bring another motion next meeting to rescind that other action, unless there was a moratorium of some sort established.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconsi...on_of_a_motion
    Definitely worth a try, but I would be somewhat surprised if the board actually had anyone on it that knew the procedure... but you never know, maybe they do.

    Most organizations use a "modified" Robert's Rules of Order (RONR). I was trained in RONR years ago and if I try to use it in any deliberation I get some pretty hostile responses... but it could be just me
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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