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Thread: Went in to buy a gun

  1. #1
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    Went in to buy a gun

    Dad went in to wholesale sports and couldnt but a pistol today. said he needed t have an id with current address. we moved and in the dol system our address is updated but its not printed on the card. does this sound right to anyone?

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  3. #3
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    Yes, it is correct. The ID MUST have the correct address on it.

    See 27 CFR 478.124

    (c)(1) Prior to making an over-the-counter transfer of a firearm to a nonlicensee who is a resident of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer so transferring the firearm shall obtain a Form 4473 from the transferee showing the transferee's name, sex, residence address (including county or similar political subdivision), date and place of birth; height, weight and race of the transferee; the transferee's country of citizenship; the transferee's INS-issued alien number or admission number; the transferee's State of residence; and certification by the transferee that the transferee is not prohibited by the Act from transporting or shipping a firearm in interstate or foreign commerce or receiving a firearm which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce or possessing a firearm in or affecting commerce.

    Read more: http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/478-124-fire...#ixzz1Ec2BGOrT

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    Well isn't that a bunch of crap. Try and apply for any kind of social service and see what they ask you for residence verification. It sure the hell isn't a drivers license. They want to see a utility bill in your name with and address, a signed lease agreement, or something of that nature.

    Besides that the law does not specifically state to obtain the verification of residency by means of a drivers license. It simply states that the dealer must obtain a form 4473 with that information on it.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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  5. #5
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    Wholesale Sports will accept the DL if you simply put a sticky address lable on the back with the correct address.

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    I had run into the same problem. I had moved and had not replaced my DL yet. So the old address was printed. The local FFL dealer just gave me a sticker to put on the back and told me to write it on there. Even though every system is updated, just not the plastic I carry around with me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post

    The RCW contains no requirement for the address to match the Driver's License nor for the dealer to verify the address given on the state's pistol form against anything...
    The RCW may not, but the FFL is required to establish proof of residence.

    This is from the instructions ON THE 4473 itself: Before a licensee may sell or deliver a firearm to a nonlicensee, the licensee must establish the identity, place of residence and age of the buyer. The buyer must provide a valid government-issued photo identification to the seller that contains the buyer's name, residence address, and date of birth...

    http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

    Now, we can argue all day long about what the laws REALLY means, but in the final analysis, if the FFL holder says address on 4473 and address on license MUST match before he'll sell the firearm, it's HIS license he is protecting.

    ( I would have referenced the CD that ATFE sends me every year, but no one else can read it....so had to find the destructions on line.)
    Last edited by oneeyeross; 02-21-2011 at 04:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oneeyeross View Post
    The RCW may not, but the FFL is required to establish proof of residence.

    This is from the instructions ON THE 4473 itself: Before a licensee may sell or deliver a firearm to a nonlicensee, the licensee must establish the identity, place of residence and age of the buyer. The buyer must provide a valid government-issued photo identification to the seller that contains the buyer's name, residence address, and date of birth...

    http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

    Now, we can argue all day long about what the laws REALLY means, but in the final analysis, if the FFL holder says address on 4473 and address on license MUST match before he'll sell the firearm, it's HIS license he is protecting.

    ( I would have referenced the CD that ATFE sends me every year, but no one else can read it....so had to find the destructions on line.)
    Ok. That makes sense oneeyeross.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Quote Originally Posted by oneeyeross View Post
    The RCW may not, but the FFL is required to establish proof of residence.

    This is from the instructions ON THE 4473 itself: Before a licensee may sell or deliver a firearm to a nonlicensee, the licensee must establish the identity, place of residence and age of the buyer. The buyer must provide a valid government-issued photo identification to the seller that contains the buyer's name, residence address, and date of birth...
    Thanks. This makes more sense. The initial regulation you posted just talked about the form, not the requirement to actually confirm the address.

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    Just ran into this at Surplus Ammo a week ago. Whether or not one can cite the reg, and whether or not it might be ambiguous, or simply not need the correct address on a piece of ID, it seems of late that there is some effort to MAKE SURE that ID presented agrees with the address given on the form 4473. If more than 1 piece of ID is presented, they seem to need to all agree.
    I don't know if BATFE or some other agency is presenting pressure to comply here, but it seems clear there is some motivation to have all ID and paperwork agree.
    Since FFL holders are protecting their license, even if they may be mistaken about how far they must carry the letter of the law, I can sympathize with their plight.
    The typical BATFE tactic is to wait until the wee hours of the morning, storm the address with a SWAT team, and shake everybody down as aggro as they can. Innocent? That's of no concern.
    I guess if yer gonna fight city hall, so to speak, you better put on your heavy armor.

  11. #11
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Why not deal with this the same way other "agencies" do? Bring a Phone Bill, Water/Sewer bill, Cable TV Bill, etc, in your name with your current address on it.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
    Just ran into this at Surplus Ammo a week ago. Whether or not one can cite the reg, and whether or not it might be ambiguous, or simply not need the correct address on a piece of ID, it seems of late that there is some effort to MAKE SURE that ID presented agrees with the address given on the form 4473. If more than 1 piece of ID is presented, they seem to need to all agree.
    I don't know if BATFE or some other agency is presenting pressure to comply here, but it seems clear there is some motivation to have all ID and paperwork agree.
    Since FFL holders are protecting their license, even if they may be mistaken about how far they must carry the letter of the law...
    What makes you think yours is anything more than an isolated in incident of gun-shop ignorance?

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    notice it still says government issued ID though, doesn't it?

  14. #14
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneeyeross View Post
    notice it still says government issued ID though, doesn't it?
    But the tax bill for you home is "government issued" isn't it? Combine that with a photo id and you should be home free, assuming the person wants to read and can understand the instructions.

    If it's a big Corporation store the only thing that will fly is whatever the "Corporate Weenies" have decided they want. Logic and reason won't fly.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Quote Originally Posted by oneeyeross View Post
    notice it still says government issued ID though, doesn't it?
    Yea and it also says the licensee may accept a combination of government issued documents. They are leaving up to the discretion of the licensee.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    and as I noted, it is the FFL holder's license. He is the final judge of what documents satisfy the requirements of the law.

    We can bandy back and forth, but in the final decision, the license holder makes the decision what documents satisfy the law. You can howl at the moon, turn blue, whatever, but the license holder makes the decision.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneeyeross View Post
    and as I noted, it is the FFL holder's license. He is the final judge of what documents satisfy the requirements of the law.

    We can bandy back and forth, but in the final decision, the license holder makes the decision what documents satisfy the law. You can howl at the moon, turn blue, whatever, but the license holder makes the decision.
    Yes, he can decide what he'll take. But he can't decide what satisfy's the law.

    With all the Dealers out there that are fair, honest, and easy to deal with, why would anyone want to beat their head against the wall when dealing with one that wants to be difficult, mostly because they don't really understand what satisfies the requirements?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    I went into Cascade Arms on Martin way and bought a pistol, my address isnt current they didnt care. It matched me and I have my permit. I don't know why they would give you a problem. Thats why I don't shop there.

  19. #19
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    It seems the bigger stores are more strict on the rules. I went to Wholesale sports to get my XDm and they almost wouldn't sell me it. Lucky for me, my insurance was at the current address so there was no problem. At Big-5 I wanted to buy a GSG5 (I know Big5 is crap, but the GSG5 is the closest I can get to the MP5), same issue with my license, but this time my insurance wasn't enough. They told me that I had to go update my license. No gun for me.

    On the other hand, I bought a shotgun from Boerner's and my ID with my old address on it was good enough. I actually made a point of saying "That isn't my current address" and was told that it was OK and got my Mossy without a problem.
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    I purchased two rifles at Big-5. Both of my Mosin's came from there, one from the Everett store and one from Marysville.

    The address on my DL was an old one, so they used the DL to establish identify, and my CPL to verify my address.

  21. #21
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Wing Wacko View Post
    I purchased two rifles at Big-5. Both of my Mosin's came from there, one from the Everett store and one from Marysville.

    The address on my DL was an old one, so they used the DL to establish identify, and my CPL to verify my address.
    Interesting that you'd have two different addresses, one on the DL and one on the CPL. They made me get an address change on my DL before they'd issue my CPL. Also verified that address was OK on my DL for renewals of CPL
    Last edited by amlevin; 03-02-2011 at 12:22 PM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  22. #22
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    When I got my CPL I don't remember being asked for ID, maybe it was the fact they were fingerprinting me and that would be harder to fake than a drivers license.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    When I got my CPL I don't remember being asked for ID, maybe it was the fact they were fingerprinting me and that would be harder to fake than a drivers license.
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    How did they get your driver's license number to put on your CPL?
    Filled it out on the application days before I came in for the fingerprinting.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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